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Re: Bad relationship

#69099
Dree
Member

[quote author=Izzie link=topic=12456.msg241242#msg241242 date=1221697392]
[quote author=Dree link=topic=12456.msg241238#msg241238 date=1221693404]

Apologies for bringing my own dog, Nell, into the discussion.  I was only using her as an example of where the instant down (or the Martini  ;)) could be used.  Dogs running off to play with other dogs….instant down in place, go and put dog on lead and reward.  The behaviour of running off becomes extinct because every time it runs off (to attack, to play, whatever) it is put in a down.  The “running off” behaviour simply disappears, because there is no fun at the end of it.  The fun becomes the down, and the reward for the down….which is eventually phased out as well. 
[/quote]

Hang on…

So you’re telling Cjane to put her dog into a down everytime the dog runs off and then put them on a lead- correct?

yes.
but shouldnt you reward the down and not put the lead on?
why put them on a lead at all? -thats only going to create an extintion of the down cue and open even more problems- is it not?

Why not get a 100% reliable recall? or a reliable stop cue?  or even a go greet- greet nice cue in place instead of running the risk of extinctions occuring and the dog working to avoid.
[/quote]

Yes, I’m saying “drop the dog” if it is running to a situation that you don’t want.  (Whether the dog is attacking….as Nell would be….or running into trouble.)  Why put the dog on the lead?  Because if it is determined to get to where it’s going, you want to avoid it.  Why should putting the lead on cause an extinction of the Down?  The dog has to go into a down….you praise it as you walk towards it…both reinforcing the down, and verbally rewarding at the same time.  Nell has never lost the instant down….after all, I needed it for sendaway, DC, etc. in obedience, so the last thing I want is to lose it.  (Nor has any other dog I’ve used this on.)  IF the dog has a 100% recall, then by all means use it…..but I’ve found (especially with collies) that they will respond to the down quicker than a recall.  You also don’t *need* to put the dog on the lead.  (It will depend on the dog and the circumstances.) You can always down and recall to a game.  A “go-greet-nice” cue is all very well, once you have a dog you can control.  An instant down *is* a reliable stop cue…..again, I’ve found, especially with this breed, that the down is easier than “just” stop.

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