Re: Bad relationship

[Dree]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12456.msg241278#msg241278 date=1221744387]
at the end of the day… 🙂

extinction is what it is and involves aversion…even for the most ‘rewarding’ trainer…it takes skill and understanding to apply correctly and it’s use…. while at times useful…. i would not use in this way…personal choice…but i wont risk extinguishing a behaviour at the sake of not using another cue for a wanted behaviour…if dog has to be leashed …even from a martini down…then the recall is not a martini…or the stop isnt…or upsit or roll on back or go left go right…or into nudge or a stand off or a wait up or or…just MHO…

cues for sheepdogs…same principles apply…a word is a word is a word..you should hear some of my mothers  😀 😀
[/quote]

I disagree….you are not risking anything.  Yes, the owner doesn’t have an instant recall….but that’s the whole point of putting in another behaviour *in place of* the one that has not been proofed.  No harm in that.  Yes, a word is a word is a word.  Just as a dog is a dog is a dog.  But having worked with collies a lot (with our own and with rescues) and also with other breeds, the collie is by far the faster dog mentally, and the first thing it will pick up is the down….they are “down” dogs.  (Or, you might find they are “stand” dogs….depends on the breeding….if you own a collie, you need to play around with both of them.)