Bad relationship

[Anonymous]

This thread is surreal.  :surprise:

[Anonymous]

right – i think i have it !

Dree – Apologies, from your posts I had a completely different interpretation!  As Izzy says you are using the down as a stop cue and then leashing her and avoiding other dogs.  Just out of interest – what do you do when other peoples annoyingly mis-behaved dogs race up to her (happens all the time to me)?

Dree – Bonnie isnt naughty, she followed every cue I gave her.  The fault is with me – I shouldnt have sent her to greet with so little ground visibility (long grass and a green toy) and next time I will think of this possible situation so thats another one added to my knowledge.  I expect William with his failings of reading the more subtle language in a dark coloured dog with a squashed face and no tail didnt realise he was gonna cop it and I missed it too for much the same reasons.  I just called them both back to me, got Bonnie to drop the ball so I could give it back and held them in a sustained wait until the Boxer and its ball had got far enough away that I knew further cues would hold 🙂

CJ – IMO letting him in the bedroom and on the bed (pack managers nest) is a sure fire way to give him idea’s above his station and is very poor advice.  He is probably now back to thinking he is the boss of you and thats why he’s taking the p*ss – just look at his breeding from Waggi’s comments about Oban (and bear in mind she has had actual working sheepdogs to compare and also knows other dogs from his lines).

Also – I would like to know which is left and right for “comeby” and “away” (i am not sure but i think “tome” is a seperate cue as I have seen “away” used without it aswell)  a bit like heelclose and just close on its own.  Might be trying Bonnie on stock soon !!!

Mudgie – good luck and you’ll knock ’em dead 🙂

Claire x

[Mudgie]

[quote author=wags link=topic=12456.msg241268#msg241268 date=1221736298]
sweetheart i think you will find the best place to be is in the pub  :ok:
[/quote]

Wagster  :-* stop being a bad wee baby  :gum:

Piglet if you live in north east – ha way means “come”  :yes:

[kizkiznobite]

at the end of the day… 🙂

extinction is what it is and involves aversion…even for the most ‘rewarding’ trainer…it takes skill and understanding to apply correctly and it’s use…. while at times useful…. i would not use in this way…personal choice…but i wont risk extinguishing a behaviour at the sake of not using another cue for a wanted behaviour…if dog has to be leashed …even from a martini down…then the recall is not a martini…or the stop isnt…or upsit or roll on back or go left go right…or into nudge or a stand off or a wait up or or…just MHO…

cues for sheepdogs…same principles apply…a word is a word is a word..you should hear some of my mothers  😀 😀

i still tend…even with the gunners …as those of you that have been out with me…use upcomeby…totally different context of course…but…it just a word and i know how i interpreted it at 4 years old  😀 😀

mind you…when my mother says such stuff…i still to this day become a sheepdog…a bit like me yelling at Mo WAIT as she went to cross road in front of car…she did…and then said…I am not a dog… ;D

[*Lassie*]

mind you…when my mother says such stuff…i still to this day become a sheepdog…a bit like me yelling at Mo WAIT as she went to cross road in front of car…she did…and then said…I am not a dog…

You sound just like my Mother ;D she told me to sit and wait at the kerb as we went to cross the road ::)

[Kerry_and_Beau]

ha ha ha [quote author=*Lassie* link=topic=12456.msg241283#msg241283 date=1221745281]
mind you…when my mother says such stuff…i still to this day become a sheepdog…a bit like me yelling at Mo WAIT as she went to cross road in front of car…she did…and then said…I am not a dog…

You sound just like my Mother ;D she told me to sit and wait at the kerb as we went to cross the road ::)
[/quote]

[Mudgie]

I do that “wait” thing all the time

But I also say “click” “reward” all the time to James – he does this face  :crazy:

[wags]

mmmmmmm bev you should here mine

i think Obans down cue is more “ARSE FLOOR ENGAGE”

Mudgie i love the pub what can say  :ugly:[quote author=piglet link=topic=12456.msg241271#msg241271 date=1221740164]

CJ – IMO letting him in the bedroom and on the bed (pack managers nest) is a sure fire way to give him idea’s above his station and is very poor advice.  He is probably now back to thinking he is the boss of you and thats why he’s taking the p*ss – just look at his breeding from Waggi’s comments about Oban (and bear in mind she has had actual working sheepdogs to compare and also knows other dogs from his lines).

[/quote]

i know quite a few from Oban type breeding and non are what you could call “easy” dogs
and quite a few of them are allowed to sleep in their owners bed rooms – inc Obie dog himself
things have to black and white with Oban you can not have any grey areas (like i do with Meggie) and i do not have to be affraid on pulling him up on it either

i do it with Joe all the time “YOU WAIT THERE” but the best one is “JOE HEAL”  :-\

[Anonymous]

yep me too guilty as charged – i tell harry “wait” and “thisway” and if i dont remember to do “Harry thisway nodogs” i’m promptly clattered upon by a toddler and 2 dogs !

claire x

[Dree]

[quote author=Izzie link=topic=12456.msg241242#msg241242 date=1221697392]
[quote author=Dree link=topic=12456.msg241238#msg241238 date=1221693404]

Apologies for bringing my own dog, Nell, into the discussion.  I was only using her as an example of where the instant down (or the Martini  ;)) could be used.  Dogs running off to play with other dogs….instant down in place, go and put dog on lead and reward.  The behaviour of running off becomes extinct because every time it runs off (to attack, to play, whatever) it is put in a down.  The “running off” behaviour simply disappears, because there is no fun at the end of it.  The fun becomes the down, and the reward for the down….which is eventually phased out as well. 
[/quote]

Hang on…

So you’re telling Cjane to put her dog into a down everytime the dog runs off and then put them on a lead- correct?

yes.
but shouldnt you reward the down and not put the lead on?
why put them on a lead at all? -thats only going to create an extintion of the down cue and open even more problems- is it not?

Why not get a 100% reliable recall? or a reliable stop cue?  or even a go greet- greet nice cue in place instead of running the risk of extinctions occuring and the dog working to avoid.
[/quote]

Yes, I’m saying “drop the dog” if it is running to a situation that you don’t want.  (Whether the dog is attacking….as Nell would be….or running into trouble.)  Why put the dog on the lead?  Because if it is determined to get to where it’s going, you want to avoid it.  Why should putting the lead on cause an extinction of the Down?  The dog has to go into a down….you praise it as you walk towards it…both reinforcing the down, and verbally rewarding at the same time.  Nell has never lost the instant down….after all, I needed it for sendaway, DC, etc. in obedience, so the last thing I want is to lose it.  (Nor has any other dog I’ve used this on.)  IF the dog has a 100% recall, then by all means use it…..but I’ve found (especially with collies) that they will respond to the down quicker than a recall.  You also don’t *need* to put the dog on the lead.  (It will depend on the dog and the circumstances.) You can always down and recall to a game.  A “go-greet-nice” cue is all very well, once you have a dog you can control.  An instant down *is* a reliable stop cue…..again, I’ve found, especially with this breed, that the down is easier than “just” stop.

[wags]

actually i do and i dont agree with that

its easier with some collies

its a damm site easier to recall Oban that it is to down him where as its easier to down Glen than it is to recall him

UH there you go ive found my clear distinction between my working lines and show lines dogs  ;D

[kizkiznobite]

ok…think i am with you but…so you want dog to stop actually yes?
but you add a down to that stop ? yes?

what if…just what if ok? putting the dog down causes risk?

because what i want is a stop so i can assess and then do a stand off at 3ft or 6ft or 9ft or 12ft etc  or even a getbehindme so as i will protect you…as in 100% trust…or an away 15ft 20ft 30ft etc

have had this of late with a client…dog been at school …has been taught this and this is what client did…read the language that dog was not happy bunny…but this is what she was taught so this is what she did…before she got to dog the reason the dog was not a happy bunny came forward and got there first…dog bit…flight was removed as an option for this dog…dog was following a martini cue from owner…but dog was placed in a position where it had no choice to make from his point of view…he felt threatened..he then ‘learnt’ for the first time in his 9 months of short life defense aggression….

sorry as i said it …personal choice …. but i would rather have the option of another dozen ‘martini’ cues to chose from than go in to an aversive technique that also then risks an extinction on other cued behaviours

to go back to my baby boyo…there is no way..as much as at times it a pain in the butt that kids are oooohhh awwwww bugger the training…i will not use an extinction technique to risk losing the recall…the drop..the go left go right go whereverthehellisaygo…(and …he only 6 months…) by putting him on a leash…sorry…not personal but in MHO …crazy…extinction sure has it’s place…esp in remod….but in this sort of instance…in my book it just asking for future trouble…and if it has to be used in this sort of situation then other cues are not fluent and reliable without hesitation and the dog should not be so exposed and set up to fail…needs proofing…pure and simple…my dad always said…if you aint proofed a behaviour then don’t tell me dog is trained…

[Dree]

[quote author=cjane link=topic=12456.msg241260#msg241260 date=1221734556]

Izzie – I think Dree’s instant down is meant for emergency situations. If the situation can be avoided by just recalling him, or the other dog is known not to be a problem, or if it was a false alarm, then putting on lead may not be necessary.  The idea (I think) is to get him to stop in his tracks and pay attention to you, difficult for a dog in flight but obviously achievable.

Dree – I’ve started practicing an instant down, just on the long line or lead and when I have his attention.  Also tried a couple running/playing in the field ie on the move.  He’s a bit slow to react but we’ll work on it.
[/quote]

You’re spot on, CJ.  🙂  See my post to Izzie re: the instant down.  How are you teaching the instant down?  Remember that if he does a slow one, or is slow to react (presuming he understands the command perfectly in all circumstances) then with-hold the reward.  Or just give him a pat on the head, and say “Good try, son, but not good enough.  Try again.”  When you get a half-decent response, then go ballistic with whatever reward you are using. 

Just very quickly…the way I taught it.  The dog knew the down command at home, and in the garden.  (And would drop quickly.)  So, in training outside, I trained with no dogs around.  (I was fortunate in having a park where there were no dogs.)  You *cannot* do it with other dogs around….the dog simply cannot cope.  Okay…..have a ball in your hand, and have the dog follow your hand.  (Teach that first….if your dog has not been taught “Follow the hand” then teach that first.  Show them the ball in your hand, and have him follow the hand for two steps.  Throw the ball.  Build up until you can hold your hand out wide, and the dog follows for a large right hand circle.  Once the Follow is strong, go on to the Down.)  On the circle, give the Down command.  If dog drops, throw the ball.  If they don’t….no good, try again.  Physically stop and play with the ball yourself…..throw it up and down in your hand…..hype him up a bit.  There’s no pressure on the dog to go down.  But when they do…..ballistic with ball!!!  ;D)  The dog soon realises that you are in control of the situation, simply because you are in control of the reward…and the only way to get the reward is to do the down.

[kizkiznobite]

sorry but…you dont work within criterias then…as in taking in account the influences of environments before moving on the process?

[Dree]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12456.msg241297#msg241297 date=1221750106]
ok…think i am with you but…so you want dog to stop actually yes?
but you add a down to that stop ? yes?

what if…just what if ok? putting the dog down causes risk?

…if you aint proofed a behaviour then don’t tell me dog is trained…
[/quote]

As I said before….a down *is* a stop.  IF it was going to put a dog at risk, I wouldn’t use it, as simple as that.  I agree, if a behaviour is not proofed, then the dog isn’t properly trained.  That’s where a lot of people fall down in their training….they don’t proof the behaviour’s strong enough.

[Author]

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