Boundaries no longer being respected (ie. garden fence!)

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  • #63444
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hi – kind of don’t want to post this as am ashamed – but need help to sort it – so am asking  🙁

    Loki is 2 1/2 now – he has been spending most weekends of his life at my parents place in Suffolk – with Dottie the border collie who is now 12. The garden is sort of open in alot of ways – there is a hedge on one edge of the garden, the side that goes onto the road – dogs can easily go through as is young hedge – but they never have done and have always respected it as a boundary.

    So in the past… Loki will run up to hedge if someone walks past with a dog – but he won’t go through.  Dottie is not interested in other dogs – so never bothers – but she can spend hours out in the garden – she knows the boundaries (there are other open bits) and never leaves the grounds.

    Recently – Loki has decided to leave the gardens and say hello to any dog that passes  🙁  So I now only let him in garden if I am out there – and if I see a dog – I tell him , leave – which he listens to if I get in quick enough (ie. If I see dog first). So – the latest development is this (yesterday)…  Loki is trying to avoid me saying ‘leave’ by trying to spot dogs before they walk by – as a result – he is getting it wrong and yesterday ran out onto road because he saw a bicycle… which wasn’t what he wanted – but he followed the movement.

    The main issues are these:

    1) Once he runs off after something he won’t listen to me until he has gone to see what it is – then he will come back to normal recall command. So recall doesn’t work until he has been to greet dog. So my recall comand has ‘conditions’ and is not therefore fluent in every situation.

    2) Leave only works if I get in fast enough – he tries to avoid me saying it.

    3) There is no greater reward than greeting the dog. No toy/ food or game or anything wins over greeting the dog.

    4) Stop comand does not work either in this situation.

    5) Loki could get run over/ cause accident etc etc and is dangerous.

    Should add that recall/ stop etc usually work in other situations – but have broken down here.

    I have now only been leeting him in garden either on lead or when I am playing a game that has his full attention on me.

    Help  🙁

    Fencing garden is not option.

    #78511
    deebee
    Member

    oh, im sorry to hear this. no need to feel ashamed. 

    i cant help but i didnt want to read and leave you.

    do you know what made him first realise he could get through the hedge? might be relevent, might not.

    <<>> not very helpful but have them anyway

    #78512
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Not sure – I guess he got through hedge and nothing bad happened – so he now thinks is ok?

    Thanks for you message tho xx

    #78513
    Izzie
    Member

    Good on you for posting Sarah

    Have you done any type of training in the garden?

    Think you might have to go back to sqaure one with him in this situation and get the recall back, best place to be, etc.

    If you need people to help you set up, just shout can come and do a day with the dogs walking past am sure 🙂 Jess gets quite narky at dogs who just appear out of nowhere

    #78514
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thanks Izzie – much appreciated. I thought we might try setting up dogs to walk past (quite easy as know lots).

    But my main problem is this – the greatest reward for Loki is greeting the dog (always has been)… So how do i find something he would rather do than see the dog? Food doesn’t cut it for him… toys don’t work either.

    You are right about the recall… I know that is the issue. Although he always comes back – is just on his terms (after greeting) not mine… 

    We have done some training in the garden – and early on we taught him the boundaries – but saying ‘ah ah’ if he looked like he was going to go past one. He partly learnt from Dottie who doesn’t leave the grounds.

    In lots of ways we are always training – practising recall etc – I always have whistle/ treats with me – and we still use clicker – mainly indoors tho.

    Out in the park I can stop him running up to other dogs if I get a cue in fast enough. Although again – he’ll ignore me if he runs before I see the dog…  :'(

    #78515
    Izzie
    Member

    You want to get the greet in as the reward then, best bet is to set it up so that you can give the greet as a reward.

    You need to use the clicker outside too then, up the criteria.

    You want dogs who are going to ignore or not give the greet unless its on your terms.

    #78516
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hadn’t thought of that… that is good plan!

    Not sure I know any dogs that would be weel trained enough to not greet unless allowed by owner…

    I don’t usually click outside for fear that am going to click the wrong thing!

    I think I could train this in a park – rather than garden… as the problem is wanting to greet other dogs all the time – so if I could get cues working there – i could then use in garden..

    Basically I think he is mainly thinking about sex… and whetehr he can get some… hence why once he’s greeted a dog he usually isn’t interested after that.. might be wrong tho..

    #78517
    Izzie
    Member

    Do you need the same sort of set up Deebee and Max had?

    If so, you are more than welcome to pop over – am away from this sat for a week but after that you can  🙂

    #78518
    deebee
    Member

    thats the problem isnt it, nice well cued dogs arent ten a penny.

    after hes greeted the dog, does he react the same way everytime? i ask because if the dog is ‘boring’ max recalls once hes checked it out. if it wants to play, theres nothing i can do other than to go get him.

    #78519
    deebee
    Member

    sounds like its the location more than anything though izzie  :-\

    btw, not to hijack this but i had reason to have to recall max yesterday, and he did! had to do it twice mind until they went out of view. i think the big ditch he was headed for might have had something to do with it, but hey, i’ll take it!!

    #78520
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thanks Iz – we were going to meet up anyway weren’t we – sounds good – can do after you get back.

    The issue is not just the location really – but the location is a big problem.  I would say the issue is that his recall fails in that situation… and in others… so is not fluent. 

    The be place to be is saying hello to another dog.. that’s the problem  :'(

    #78521
    Izzie
    Member

    You will get there Sarah,

    Will drop you a pm when back and we can arrange.  :ok:

    #78522

    Hi,

    You have the idea right in that “inside the fence” needs to be more interesting than “outside the fence”.

    he has learned that he can ignore you and get his own reward by going through much better than you are offering in the garden

    as you’ll know the more you allow the behaviour you dont want to be successful to be reinforced like this the more he’ll do it and the less likely he will be to hold any cues.

    i would disallow the behaviour and also stop this working to avoid by putting him on a lunge line so he cannot get out and you dont extinguish your cues by using them when not R&F.

    its a feature of the location that he can do this but its not the location itself as i expect it would happen anywhere he can get to other dogs and you dont cue early enough.

    Why dont you book yourself a few refresher sessions with Bev to work on this?  There’s no shame in going over things again or working on new things.  Having my last 2 strong girlies here for fostering, Bonnie has learned that she can manage by moving on the “noyoubloodydont” into contact.  We are going to work on seeing if we can get a stand off with her – I dont expect I will ever get to the “ideal” which is the dog stands and takes any aggression until you rescue it, she is a crossover dog and hasnt been raised to do this work.  What I hope is that I can get her good enough to respond in a way that doesnt mean I react to incite her further (it takes ALOT of self control to not just scream your dogs name when the fur is flying) I can do this but I still panic.  I have a suspect feeling that we are going to be doing some work with my most unfavourite of “treats” …. raw meat 🙁  ICK !!

    Claire x

    #78523
    Anonymous
    Guest

    [quote author=widget link=topic=14106.msg265839#msg265839 date=1239870094]
    Hi – kind of don’t want to post this as am ashamed – but need help to sort it – so am asking  🙁

    Loki is 2 1/2 now – he has been spending most weekends of his life at my parents place in Suffolk – with Dottie the border collie who is now 12. The garden is sort of open in alot of ways – there is a hedge on one edge of the garden, the side that goes onto the road – dogs can easily go through as is young hedge – but they never have done and have always respected it as a boundary.

    So in the past… Loki will run up to hedge if someone walks past with a dog – but he won’t go through.  Dottie is not interested in other dogs – so never bothers – but she can spend hours out in the garden – she knows the boundaries (there are other open bits) and never leaves the grounds.

    Recently – Loki has decided to leave the gardens and say hello to any dog that passes  🙁  So I now only let him in garden if I am out there – and if I see a dog – I tell him , leave – which he listens to if I get in quick enough (ie. If I see dog first). So – the latest development is this (yesterday)…  Loki is trying to avoid me saying ‘leave’ by trying to spot dogs before they walk by – as a result – he is getting it wrong and yesterday ran out onto road because he saw a bicycle… which wasn’t what he wanted – but he followed the movement.

    The main issues are these:

    1) Once he runs off after something he won’t listen to me until he has gone to see what it is – then he will come back to normal recall command. So recall doesn’t work until he has been to greet dog. So my recall comand has ‘conditions’ and is not therefore fluent in every situation.

    2) Leave only works if I get in fast enough – he tries to avoid me saying it.

    3) There is no greater reward than greeting the dog. No toy/ food or game or anything wins over greeting the dog.

    4) Stop comand does not work either in this situation.

    5) Loki could get run over/ cause accident etc etc and is dangerous.

    Should add that recall/ stop etc usually work in other situations – but have broken down here.

    I have now only been leeting him in garden either on lead or when I am playing a game that has his full attention on me.

    Help  🙁

    Fencing garden is not option.
    [/quote]if your dog can get out of the garden some bodys eles dog can get in

    #78524
    deebee
    Member

    [quote author=widget link=topic=14106.msg265851#msg265851 date=1239880967]
    Thanks Iz – we were going to meet up anyway weren’t we – sounds good – can do after you get back.

    The issue is not just the location really – but the location is a big problem.  I would say the issue is that his recall fails in that situation… and in others… so is not fluent. 

    The be place to be is saying hello to another dog.. that’s the problem  :'(

    [/quote]

    sorry, i misunderstood. thought he was more or less ok out but not in the garden, but i read it wrong.

    jess (or is it trixie i can never remember  :embarrass:) will not encourage him to run up to her thats for sure.

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