cause and effect – conscious choice or not…

[kerrie and stan]

im not argue for or against anything inparticuar just wondered what peoples thoughts were

[Gracie]

sorry Kerrie not you, meant to take out your bit of the quote, i meant Diesel is trying to confues Terry  🙂 >:D ;D

[Diesel73]

quote :

ahh but, you saying here dog reacts to the key in door so no future concept yes? but is not your argument for the thread that the dog has future concept??   (or am i thinking of someone else)
and to think you trying to confuse Terry    

Yes, and it is future concept. Because when dog reacts to the key in the door happy than he not done anything he knows he should not have. But when he steals food and hears key in the door than he will get the h.ll out of the place of crime and go someplace else as if he not did it. So if he got knowledge of how owner going to respond both ways, than he must have future concept, as he is anticipating in how owner is going to react even before he seen owner at all.  😉

[quote author=kerrie and stan link=topic=11567.msg225707#msg225707 date=1214075022]
im not argue for or against anything inparticuar just wondered what peoples thoughts were
[/quote]
Let’s start with how you think about this . Come on, give us your opinion. And you gracie, you too  :-* .

[kerrie and stan]

[quote author=Gracie link=topic=11567.msg225713#msg225713 date=1214075410]
sorry Kerrie not you, meant to take out your bit of the quote, i meant Diesel is trying to confues Terry  🙂 >:D ;D

[/quote]

oh right that makes more sence ;D

[Gracie]

hmmm ok then diesel will let you off,  ;D

am just thinking, this thread has gone from being what it was to past / future concept?

but i think, (posted earlier in thread) that yes they have past future concept if they can link it to a punishement reward of that / an action, in the case Bev said of dog wanting to go out, no i dont think it was planned, more of like i think claire said, the dog asked to go out and saw masters chair fress and thought that was a better option 🙂

Bev was it raining on the night this happened  ;D as if it was the dog might have thought sod the rain.

oh also, dogs love to lie where you were sitting, as feet and bottom have the stongest scent (and thats why piper had Nats smelly old trainers in her bed :P) so maybe… hmmm lost where i was going with that one 🙂

[GSPmad]

Is true, they learn from the past…. But if they learn from the past, they know what is pleasurable, they know what gives a bad feeling,even if it’s learned in the past it has to mean they got a memory ….. To have that capability it has to mean that it can go foreward too.

i agree they have a memory – but why, because they have a memory, does that mean it has to go forward?  🙂

My boys… we go on holiday…. take suitcase of the attic. Wodan camping in my suitcase  ::) . He moody and sticks to me like velcro. Moment i put dogstuff together in bags, Wodan happy bouncing around. Not stickystick no more. And will sleep in the car when he gets the chance.
So…. he does remember what things go in car with suitcase when we go on holiday, and from thàt he knows he coming or not. So in my view he ‘plans’ to stickstick to my leg to make sure he might have an oppertunity to jump in the car with us when we leave. But that would mean he know what is coming.

Yes – but he has learnt whether it will be pleasurable for him or not by what goes in the suitcase (in a manner of speaking – blowup sheep or two maybe  😛 ) – hence reaction based on past experience.

See, I don’t think he plans to stick to your leg.  😉 i think he is acting on past experience of learnt anxiety from what has happened previously (what goes in suitcase meaning you go without him – past experience) and is sticking close because of that.  🙂  Again learning from past and acting in moment rather than planning for future.  😉

(btw I always start packing 3 weeks in advance  ::)  )

sounds like me – always important to organise stuff into piles so things do not get missed.  😀

[GSPmad]

Finaly got there with my tongue on my shoes, lungs burning, pain in the side, only to find Thor jiggyjiggy with 1 of neighbours sheep just outside the barn  ::) . Looked around me. Nobody home, no sheepdog in sight nor heard. Grabbed Thor, put him on lead, dragged his a.se home and tried very had to forget about it.  :-X

sorry but  😀 😀 ;D ;D ;D 😀 😀 ;D ;D ;D 😀 😀

can i ask at this point – what do people think of the statement that is bandied about that pets are like their owners?  😛

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Diesel73 link=topic=11567.msg225714#msg225714 date=1214075477]
Yes, and it is future concept. Because when dog reacts to the key in the door happy than he not done anything he knows he should not have. But when he steals food and hears key in the door than he will get the h.ll out of the place of crime and go someplace else as if he not did it. So if he got knowledge of how owner going to respond both ways, than he must have future concept, as he is anticipating in how owner is going to react even before he seen owner at all.  😉

[/quote]

is learning from past. because dog knows reaction will be bad when there is pee on floor, or no legs left on chair, or no food left in kitchen, or whatever…. not anticipating future – reacting to stimulus in present moment (ie key in door).  😉

yep we need other peoples views – seems to be a debtae between me and diesel at the moment.  😀 though i think we’re doing quite well, don’t you diesel?  ;D

[SuzAndTheDiva]

😀  😀 oh Diesel – he didnt ?not with a sheep ?  >:D  :D- I bet you were so glad no one else saw that is the sort of thing you NEVER live down  😀  😀  😀

[*Lassie*]

yep we need other peoples views – seems to be a debtae between me and diesel at the moment.  though i think we’re doing quite well, don’t you diesel? 

Not good at trying to debate, I think dogs are aware of the future but don’t know how to ‘prove’ it. Will have to put son on he can argue black is white ;D

[SuzAndTheDiva]

to be honest ive completely lost the thread of this errr thread. Sorry you guys done nothing but confuse me completely  -pretty much given up reading it just skimmed Diesels post and saw the sheep bit – which I felt deserved commenting on  😀

[Diesel73]

😮 You naughty people! Only reading the nauhty pieces of posts  ::) .

quote :

yep we need other peoples views – seems to be a debtae between me and diesel at the moment.  though i think we’re doing quite well, don’t you diesel? 

Yep  :-* . But we going in cirkles now. We need more input. Come on everybody. Just read page 1, Bev’s post, forget everything else and just give your view. Oh and Bev? You welcome to say something too  😉 .

quote :

i agree they have a memory – but why, because they have a memory, does that mean it has to go forward? 

Good question  :-\ , don’t know. I just think it’s so, that if they capable of memory than got to be capable of the oposite too. But i can not explain why.

quote :

Yes – but he has learnt whether it will be pleasurable for him or not by what goes in the suitcase (in a manner of speaking – blowup sheep or two maybe  ) – hence reaction based on past experience.

See, I don’t think he plans to stick to your leg.  i think he is acting on past experience of learnt anxiety from what has happened previously (what goes in suitcase meaning you go without him – past experience) and is sticking close because of that.    Again learning from past and acting in moment rather than planning for future. 

Yes ok, i totaly agree, with every word. But to me – sticking to me, camping in suitcase, bowls come so yeaaaah he’s coming too-..that is knowing what is coming….. in the future.

quote :

Not good at trying to debate, I think dogs are aware of the future but don’t know how to ‘prove’ it. Will have to put son on he can argue black is white

Shove over mam, bring him online, i want that kid here hahahaha  😀 .

[quote author=SuzAndTheDiva link=topic=11567.msg225967#msg225967 date=1214162216]
to be honest ive completely lost the thread of this errr thread. Sorry you guys done nothing but confuse me completely  -pretty much given up reading it just skimmed Diesels post and saw the sheep bit – which I felt deserved commenting on  😀
[/quote]
Read only Bev’s post on page 1  :-* . (pssst you still naughty girl  😛 )

[*Lassie*]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=11567.msg219081#msg219081 date=1212042126]
ok…so if you are thinking that it was a deliberate act….

then presumably you would agree that a dog is aware of the future and does not just live in the present ?
;D

[/quote]

I go to a friends house twice a week, without saying anything to the dogs they know when it’s the day we are suppose to go there. They also know what time my OH arrives home at night after work – so they must have a concept of time so they must be aware of future.

[GSPmad]

[quote author=*Lassie* link=topic=11567.msg226706#msg226706 date=1214423061]
[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=11567.msg219081#msg219081 date=1212042126]
ok…so if you are thinking that it was a deliberate act….

then presumably you would agree that a dog is aware of the future and does not just live in the present ?
;D

[/quote]

I go to a friends house twice a week, without saying anything to the dogs they know when it’s the day we are suppose to go there. They also know what time my OH arrives home at night after work – so they must have a concept of time so they must be aware of future.
[/quote]

ah – but body language can be very subtle – and dogs can smell and detect changes in body chemicals etc – so there may be sufficient difference when you are expecting OH home to give them signals that to them result in a particular consequence – ie OH arriving home; ditto for going to friend’s house.

how many times on here or elsewhere do people struggle with WHY a dog is doing something – sudden change in behaviour or something – and there is always some reason behind the process – trigger\ stimulus\ whatever. so i think they are reacting to subtle changes in body lang etc that you don’t realise\ notice but they do, and not anticipating the future.  🙂

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Diesel73 link=topic=11567.msg226671#msg226671 date=1214416311]

quote :

Yes – but he has learnt whether it will be pleasurable for him or not by what goes in the suitcase (in a manner of speaking – blowup sheep or two maybe   ) – hence reaction based on past experience.

See, I don’t think he plans to stick to your leg.   i think he is acting on past experience of learnt anxiety from what has happened previously (what goes in suitcase meaning you go without him – past experience) and is sticking close because of that.    Again learning from past and acting in moment rather than planning for future. 

Yes ok, i totaly agree, with every word. But to me – sticking to me, camping in suitcase, bowls come so yeaaaah he’s coming too-..that is knowing what is coming….. in the future.

[/quote]

naaah – what goes in suitcase associated with what has been pleasurable experience in past – one reaction acording to memory and chemical release in body – or not been pleasurable in past – different reaction and chemical release in body – reactions to learning from past not anticipating future.  ;D

and i am very sad that you didn’t mention my blow up sheep comment.  :'( i was very proud of that one (i know i know, small things amuse small minds….  😀 )

[Author]

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