Dog Borstal

[Anonymous]

Oh get on with it we all want to see Ami puppies little lumps of clumpies
Val

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=3518.msg45441#msg45441 date=1149715498]
val – please dont even go there – hollie come on today though – ami not swelling so hope not
[/quote]

[Hallsy]

Thats one hot house of hormones you got going on there Kiz!!

[kizkiznobite]

yeah – sure is and i am back to having hot flushes ::) at this rate the whole bloody house will taking sepia 🙂

[Anonymous]

roflol try saying that when your drunk val!!!

[quote author=Val link=topic=3518.msg45452#msg45452 date=1149716222]
Oh get on with it we all want to see Ami puppies little lumps of clumpies
[/quote]

[Anonymous]

Awwww clumsey poopies!!!! 😛 😛 😛

[Foxisle_crazy]

Someone printing this  ::)

[Anonymous]

[quote author=Hallsy link=topic=3518.msg44325#msg44325 date=1149543730]
Well there was a weimie that was way out of control, and the more harsh one of the three trainers, basically got him by the muzzle and flipped him over on his back, then pinned him till hed calmed down, I was nearly in tears! I admit the dog was about to bite him I think, but only playfully? I know out of control dogs need to be put in their place, but wasnt sure if that was the way to do it!?
[/quote]all he did was what a pack leader would do told him to pack it in you watch sky three the dog wisper he put choke chains on dogs with metal prongs on the in side  two seconds and it was over and he never did iit  any more  better than a shock  coller
t
n

[Sweetypye]

Unfortunately not everything you see on TV is correct.
Not all methods suit all dogs.
Not all problems can be cured with physical force and equipment and in (what appears to be) so short a time frame.

In fact with some dogs some of these techniques could seriously damage a) the handler but more importantly b) the relationship between dog and owner.

[Anonymous]

[quote author=toppy link=topic=3518.msg44331#msg44331 date=1149543947]
OMG!!! i think i would of started crying if id of seen that!! never heard of that done before, but i dont know much about training! xx
[/quote]the reson for the dogs being thier is because the owners faild them i have meet a lot of dogs that dont know what no means i love my dog but he knows if i say no its no all the dogs you se on dog bostal have been let down by the owner s  you can buy books watch d v d s  training classes etc and o lot of owners dont research the breed  and my dog i have never hit shouted at him used a choke on him and some owners take on a dog becasuse they like the look of dog  so if every body who had puppy spent time to train it dog bostal would close  simple  :what:
w
ti
ngm
a
o

[Justine&Rafe]

Farrokh – it is a proven fact that positive reinforcement training is not only more effective than negative reinforcement, but that it promotes a more enthusiastic attitude towards learning in animals (read the abstract for the article on this page re positive vs negative training http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0168159107002869 )

So in the longer term, dogs which are “trained” using negative methods will be slower to learn than dogs which are positively trained. 

As far as the type of prong collars that are seen occasionally on the dog whisperer are concerned, I do not believe that promotes a healthy relationship with an owner and their dog – the dog will obey because if it goes out of line it will be hurt… But what about when the dog is off lead?

I have problems with Rafe pulling, but having tried choke chains on him, found them to be of limited use, he’d just pull AND choke.  So now I have him on a simple thick leather collar, and am using positive methods to train him to walk to heel.  Not only will I have a dog who WANTS to walk by my side but the repercussions on the rest of his training will all be positive.

Yes – negative reinforcement will provide quick results, but a clever dog will soon find another way to get past it, and a dog that has been previously abused may suffer from extreme stress during this time.

Positive reinforcement is a longer road, based on building trust and a solid form of mutual respect.  Although it will take longer to get the desired result in many cases, it will be more solid, and will be a permanent result.

I agree that a dog must understand “no”, and must understand that you are in charge, but I also believe that this can be achieved without having to resort to agression or infliction of physical pain.  With Rafe, my negative reinforcement is to turn around as soon s he starts pulling ahead; I do not tug the lead as I turn, or shout at him to stop pulling – I’m using my brain because I know that he gets such a reward from walking forwards, his reward is to walk forwards when he is at heel, and “punishment” to have to walk back where we just came from.

I do believe that negativity in training is required to a certain extent – a raised voice when saying “Leave it!” IS a negative method.  HOWEVER, I would draw a line between that and inflicting physical pain, which I believe is neither ethical nor effective in the long term.

[Mudgie]

a lot of the methods on dog borstal are positive punishment

they add something (positive) to decrease the behaviour (punishment) – like the shaker bottle etc

if something is added (positive) or removed (negative) to increase the behaviour then it is reinforcement

I wouldn’t say a raised voice on “leave it” is negative – depends on how raised and tone of voice

[dogloverwoooo!]

[quote author=xxpsychexx link=topic=3518.msg258257#msg258257 date=1232535966]
Farrokh – it is a proven fact that positive reinforcement training is not only more effective than negative reinforcement, but that it promotes a more enthusiastic attitude towards learning in animals (read the abstract for the article on this page re positive vs negative training http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0168159107002869 )

So in the longer term, dogs which are “trained” using negative methods will be slower to learn than dogs which are positively trained. 

As far as the type of prong collars that are seen occasionally on the dog whisperer are concerned, I do not believe that promotes a healthy relationship with an owner and their dog – the dog will obey because if it goes out of line it will be hurt… But what about when the dog is off lead?

I have problems with Rafe pulling, but having tried choke chains on him, found them to be of limited use, he’d just pull AND choke.  So now I have him on a simple thick leather collar, and am using positive methods to train him to walk to heel.  Not only will I have a dog who WANTS to walk by my side but the repercussions on the rest of his training will all be positive.

Yes – negative reinforcement will provide quick results, but a clever dog will soon find another way to get past it, and a dog that has been previously abused may suffer from extreme stress during this time.

Positive reinforcement is a longer road, based on building trust and a solid form of mutual respect.  Although it will take longer to get the desired result in many cases, it will be more solid, and will be a permanent result.

I agree that a dog must understand “no”, and must understand that you are in charge, but I also believe that this can be achieved without having to resort to agression or infliction of physical pain.  With Rafe, my negative reinforcement is to turn around as soon s he starts pulling ahead; I do not tug the lead as I turn, or shout at him to stop pulling – I’m using my brain because I know that he gets such a reward from walking forwards, his reward is to walk forwards when he is at heel, and “punishment” to have to walk back where we just came from.

I do believe that negativity in training is required to a certain extent – a raised voice when saying “Leave it!” IS a negative method.  HOWEVER, I would draw a line between that and inflicting physical pain, which I believe is neither ethical nor effective in the long term.
[/quote]

Negative reinforcement is not always a bad thing, i think you might be confusing it with punishment? negative reinforcement is taking something away rather than smacking for example. smacking etc would be punishment

[Justine&Rafe]

It isn’t so simple as adding or removing things being positive or negative… If that were the case one could argue that adding a prong or e collar is a positive training method.

Positive reinforcement is not simply about adding things, it is about rewarding desired behaviours.

Likewise negative reinforcement is not about taking things away, it is about “punishing” an undesired behaviour.

Using a rattle bottle IS a negative reinforcement method.  I’m not saying that it’s necessarily wrong, I think that it has a similar effect to a raised voice or a hand clap.

Hope that clarifies a little.

I’m afraid there is no such thing as “positive” punishment.  But I am not totally against negative reinforcement, it’s just where you draw the line as to what is, and is not acceptable within this remit.  As I said, with Rafe, one of the big things I do when out walking if he pulls is to turn around and come back to where we came from.  This is negative reinforcement (or punishment) as I am reacting to an undesired behaviour by doing something that he does not like.  I do use a lot of positive, too though, because he gets constant praise for being to heel, and especially good work gets clickered and treated.

Smacking would also be negative reinforcement, but much further along the line than, say, shouting to your dog to leave it, or turning around when your dog’s being over keen.

Negative reinforcement is a difficult one as it’s not a case of it being clear cut, it’s just a case of knowing where the line between acceptable and unacceptable is.  I believe that when your actions cause a dog pain, either physical or emotional, that is when it has gone too far.  Shouting “leave it”, shaking a rattle bottle, or clapping loudly is very unlikely to ever cause a balanced dog pain in any sense.  Dominance rolls (as Mr Milan calls them), e collars and prong collars are likely to cause pain in many ways.

And this forum is the ideal place to be able to ask people what is, and is not acceptable if ever anyone has doubts, and if a negative method can be replaced by a positive one that someone might have more experience of.

[Sweetypye]

I wouldn’t say a raised voice on “leave it” is negative – depends on how raised and tone of voice

But Mudgie, it is the DOG that decides what is negative, not the owner…………….

Justine and Rafe, I think perhaps you may have misunderstood the meaning of negative and positive in the context of operant conditioning.

Perhaps the following will help

Positive punishment(P+)

Adding something the animal will work to avoid to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behavior. For example, jerking on the lead to stop a dog from jumping on someone is P+ used to suppress the behaviour of jumping. Other common examples of P+ include yelling, nose taps, spanking, electric shock, and assorted booby traps.

Positive reinforcement(R+)

Adding something the animal will work for to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behaviour. For example, giving the dog a treat for sitting in order to increase the probability that the dog will sit again

Negative punishment(P-)

Taking away something the animal will work for to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behaviour. For example, a dog jumps on you to get attention. By turning your back or leaving the room you apply P- by removing the attention he wants.

Negative reinforcement(R-)

Removing something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behaviour. Heeling is traditionally taught through R-. The dog receives a correction when he walks anywhere except in heel position. Walking in heel position increases because that is the only “safe place” because the threat of correction is removed by walking there. The key to R- is that an aversive must first be applied or threatened in order for it to be removed.

[SuzAndTheDiva]

yep Honey would agree that a raised voice is negative  :yes:

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