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  • #107464

    [quote author=Sweetypye link=topic=3518.msg258279#msg258279 date=1232560562]
    I wouldn’t say a raised voice on “leave it” is negative – depends on how raised and tone of voice

    But Mudgie, it is the DOG that decides what is negative, not the owner…………….

    Justine and Rafe, I think perhaps you may have misunderstood the meaning of negative and positive in the context of operant conditioning.

    Perhaps the following will help

    Positive punishment(P+)

    Adding something the animal will work to avoid to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behavior. For example, jerking on the lead to stop a dog from jumping on someone is P+ used to suppress the behaviour of jumping. Other common examples of P+ include yelling, nose taps, spanking, electric shock, and assorted booby traps.

    Positive reinforcement(R+)

    Adding something the animal will work for to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behaviour. For example, giving the dog a treat for sitting in order to increase the probability that the dog will sit again

    Negative punishment(P-)

    Taking away something the animal will work for to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behaviour. For example, a dog jumps on you to get attention. By turning your back or leaving the room you apply P- by removing the attention he wants.

    Negative reinforcement(R-)

    Removing something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behaviour. Heeling is traditionally taught through R-. The dog receives a correction when he walks anywhere except in heel position. Walking in heel position increases because that is the only “safe place” because the threat of correction is removed by walking there. The key to R- is that an aversive must first be applied or threatened in order for it to be removed.
    [/quote]

    yep justine and rafe i think you might be misunderstanding the terms positive punishment, its not positive as in a good thing, its positive as in plus something(+)

    #107465

    it is a bit confusing to get your head round, took me a while  :crazy:  ;D

    #107466
    Justine&Rafe
    Member

    :happy: No I’m not trying to say that punishment could ever be positive!

    I’ve had a good read through some of the operant conditioning articles available on the net, and I totally agree with you sweetiepye!

    It’s kind of where I was getting at with what I was saying.  When I studied behaviour we didn’t go into positive or negative punishment, so that is all new for me.

    I was coming at the negative reinforcement with correct understanding of the result, but incorrect definition.

    Reinforcement means something which causes an increase in behaviour, and negative reinforcement, as Sweetiepye said, is the removal of a stimulus to cause an increase in behaviour.

    Both positive and negative punishment as you have defined them, therefore fit into the definition of negative reinforcement…

    Positive punishment – e.g. the jerking of the lead with the dog.

    The dog will work to avoid the stimulus of lead jerking. I can see how this could be defined as positive punishment, but it is ALSO negative reinforcement.  The desired behaviour is the dog ‘not jumping’.  The dog will INCREASE its behaviour of ‘not jumping’ to avoid (or gain removal of) the stimulus of pulling on the lead.

    Electric collars are also a great example of this – e.g. dog chewing a shoe – the dog will let go of the shoe to gain the removal of the stimulus of the shock.

    Negative punishment is also negative reinforcement.  In the e.g. of the dog jumping up to get attention, the going out of the room is the stimulus.

    But this is also negative reinforcement.  The behaviour you are reinforcing is the dog not jumping up, and the stimulus you are giving for the dog jumping up is leaving the room.  The dog will work to ‘not jump up’ to gain the removal of (or avoid the stimulus of) you leaving the room.

    Thanks to sweetiepye for the definitions, and apologies for pooh pooing the positive punishment thing before then!  :embarrass: 

    I still think it is a very very difficult argument nonetheless as to where to draw the line along negative reinforcement as to where it becomes a punishment.  Particularly the definition between negative punishment and negative reinforcement.

    It’s easy to see that raising one’s voice is a negative reinforcer – but does it class as a positive punishment?  It’s certainly aversive, but as we’ve seen from the posts on here, some might not see it as a punishment, whereas others certainly do.

    Sweetiepye can you recommend some good journal articles or online (and hence free – as am skint at the mo!) reading about the operant conditioning stuff you were describing as I think I need to catch up a bit on my science!!

    #107467
    Sweetypye
    Member

    Sorry but if you are discussing operant conditioning then the terms used are not interchangeable.

    Negative reinforcement is NOT the same as positive punishment!

    I think you should read a little more about the science behind operating conditioning and its vocabulary and perhaps attend classes with a good OC trainer who can demonstrate the differences between:

    P+
    P-
    R+
    R-

    Also an aversive is not necessarily the same as positive punishment, there are plenty of natural aversives around that can NEVER be avoided.

    I will post some links on here to help you.

    #107468
    Sweetypye
    Member

    http://www.clickertraining.com/glossary

    glossary of terms, Karen Pryor’s site is probably the gold standard on terminology and science behind OC.
    http://www.clickertraining.com/node/101
    http://www.clickertraining.com/node/290

    That will get you started

    #107469
    Justine&Rafe
    Member

    Have had a look at Karen Pryor’s site in the past, but not re operant conditioning.  Will do so and ta for linky!

    I still fail to see how one can easily draw a line between some of those things you have described.  Particularly re negative punishment and negative reinforcement.

    I can see that not all negative reinforcement could be classed as punishment, but I can’t see how punishment, positive or negative, can avoid being a negative reinforcer.  And I don’t mean in the way it is used to describe training techniques, I mean in the underlying principles behind its utilisation.

    :-\

    #107470
    Sweetypye
    Member

    The key is in the glossary of terms, it is impossible to administer a negative reinforcer without first applying an aversive or the threat of one.  One triggers the other.

    #107471
    Justine&Rafe
    Member

    (I may sound argumentative here, but I’m just interested in the answers – please don’t think I’m being a total cow!)

    … I get that you have to apply an aversive in negative reinforcement, for them to want to increase behaviours in order to avoid it (or remove it)… And I can see that that is not always punishment per se – but how does punishment not fall under the same category?  I can’t see it as anything other than a sub-category of negative reinforcement, but it seems that it is explained as a totally separate entity???

    #107472
    Justine&Rafe
    Member

    Righty-ho – I think I’m getting a grasp on it now.

    Karen Pryor’s explanations give the basics but do not differentiate between the punishment and negative reinforcement at its most basic level!!

    The reinforcers are given BEFORE an anticipated action, whereas the punishment occurs AFTER!!

    Cor blimey that was amazingly simple.

    Had to do a bit more googling on it to find that out.

    That right by you sweetypye?

    #107473
    Sweetypye
    Member

    Er no the reverse.

    #107474
    Justine&Rafe
    Member

    Eh???

    :-[

    Thought I’d got it there!!

    OK, so I’ve looked on KP’s website and I STILL don’t get it then.  Doh.  Am not stupid (honest!!) but it doesn’t describe the details enough to explain the diff between them.

    Wikipedia (I know – not the greatest of resources but I’m not gonna trawl through another load of scientific journals at this time in the evening!)… Describes the punishments as addition of an aversive stimulus or removal of a favourable stimulus FOLLOWING an undesired behaviour.

    But in negative reinforcement the stimulus is added to induce a desired behaviour, which in itself results in the remoal of the stimulus (in horses this would be pressing right leg into horse’s right side when riding to get the horse to move left, then removing the pressure when horse moves).

    So surely that’s right then???

    Sooooooo confuselled.

    #107475

    :educated:
    i know you said you couldn’t get books but maybe you could try the library? sarah fishers new book breaks it down and briefly explains it and i learnt it from Pamela Reid’s Excel-erated Learning which is what the APDT reccomended when i was learning theory for my assessment.

    #107476
    Justine&Rafe
    Member

    A Library?!  :surprise:

    It has been a long time since I went in one of those!!

    ;D

    Okey dokey, on the to do list for when I have a bit more time!

    Ta!

    #107477
    Sweetypye
    Member

    If you join the APDT as a subscriber you can then join their library and read and watch to you hearts delight¬  :ok:

    #107478
    Justine&Rafe
    Member

    Cheers then!

    ;D  ;D

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