November 20, 2011 at 10:34 pm #113447
Exploring options Val, that is all 🙂November 21, 2011 at 9:31 pm #113448
You will find they have the same problems as the beardies
[quote author=Izzie link=topic=16133.msg282061#msg282061 date=1321828494]
Exploring options Val, that is all 🙂
[/quote]November 21, 2011 at 9:51 pm #113449
what do you mean Val?November 21, 2011 at 11:28 pm #113450
They are both UK breeds which means that stock that is around the world is bred on the original lines.
So back in time they are all the same blood stock the English have a far better breeding track record than say the USA they are not the same dogs as you get here in either breed they have become far more exaggerated over the year abroad, here they are are still beardies and clumbers even if we don’t like whats in the ring sometimes.
Take the Pekes they come from a very small gene pool in the UK as the numbers smuggled out was small, but there were some that went to the USA and a few other places so when the gene pool needs some fresh blood we can buy it in like my Mia she is sired by a Hong Kong bred dog they still breed them small and cobby with the correct coat now in the USA they are bigger with long straight coats that takes years of breeding to breed it out and to do so we would be crossing back into the UK dogs to get the size and coats back so at the end of the day this outcross really is not worth it.
If it was poodles then it would be fine as different lines left France to go all over the world and the breed is long coated and exaggerated which is not the way beardies or clummies should be.
This is one reason why breeds in trouble are usually UK ones as their are not enought places to get new blood imported the few beardies I have seen imported have not been a great success it’s the same genes just tossed another way LOL
ValNovember 21, 2011 at 11:56 pm #113451
I am with you, yep these particular lines go back to english lines.
Looking back at the pics, one of the dogs looks to be a bit of a worry for me, not sure if its the pic or what, but the knee seems off.
Just would like to see more of the english breeders health test >:(November 22, 2011 at 12:10 am #113452
In Clumbers so would I there are some healthy dogs out there, why so few use them I do not understand.
Clumbers are in a far worse state than beardies at the end of the day we always have the workers to fall back on for new blood which is a topic that is raging at the moment we do not have the eye problems and you would kill for our means hip score of 11.
But we do have AI problems whether that is bred or drug related is anyones guess and Beacon Health are still working on it.
I personally think that too many people are out for their own ends and not enough for the breeds and that includes the KC.
My poor Pekes have had the most terrible press it’s knocking the breed to death but they are a lot more healthy than the average breed
[quote author=Izzie link=topic=16133.msg282123#msg282123 date=1321919784]
Just would like to see more of the english breeders health test >:(
[/quote]November 22, 2011 at 12:28 pm #113453
the work that rae furness did has gone awol…my first lass was a raycroft line…she was fine and healthy apart from minor entropian …which made me decide not to breed her…jeez…when i think what has been bred since…still think the healthiest clumbers are coming from the working/show matings…but then i am biased or maybe was just lucky with cubert..he hasnt any issues…hasnt even been to the vets since 10 weeks of age..still also think that many of the health issues are due to over medicating and not feeding/raising them correctly….folk are losing the ‘lore’ for keeping these types of old breed dogs…met a couple in a nottingham park…had 2 adult clumbers and a pup…pup was all of 16 weeks old and they were bragging about how much stamina pup had and that they had just walked 5 miles and still hadnt managed to wear him out ::) as he was acting like a loon between having gravy bones stuffed in his mouth…rae furness was a tough old so and so…and could be very intimidating…but she new her stuff and was a guiding light…she taught me all i know about keeping clumbers…and never lost track of a pup from her lines…too many breeders today sell and move onand
edward the so called 8th had much to answer for…hope he rotting in hell >:D >:DNovember 22, 2011 at 5:41 pm #113454
Totally agree Bev I do not have a problem with a bit of over marking that comes on some working clumbers it can soon be bred out in the next mating what worries me is the judges, I have always said and will keep saying the judges carry the weight of the breeding in all dogs, if they will not bend on a few extra marks then the Clumbers will never recover.
It’s not my breed so maybe speaking out of turn but thats me ;D the people showing care more for money and winning than they do the breed.
On my own breed beardies new blood is a little more complicated as the working beardies may have other blood in some of them like a bit of border as they have more problems than the beardies have like eyes merles etc they are not planning to use them in the near future.
In the case of the Clummies the best hips eyes etc are in the working stock no brainer to me
ValNovember 22, 2011 at 5:51 pm #113455
except the size, they are breeding them smaller nowadays I know this for a fact, from a reliable source.
Or they arent testing fully either, only a few select working folk are health testing to the hilt, and then they can be picky over who their studs can be used on
swings and roundabouts unfortunatelyNovember 22, 2011 at 6:40 pm #113456
yep yep iz…know where you are on the size…but…it not that many years or tears genetically that judges were going for the larger sizes and it now only recently that the KC has said smaller…and it takes time to alter a breed standard no? but…i know cubes top height…and you know that baffles me somewhat…as dad isnt and mum is so tiny…but…
you ever really studied the old pics…i mean the pics of clumbers that saved the breed? the boys..and they working stock remember…they about cube’s size …the girls are ami’s size…
my question would be why they saying less height? the old breed were still heavy boned…it about proportion…it about bone mass and its development…it about raising….think of percy…when i picked him up he was barely taller than livia…yep he had an early castrate but…he had been fed crap…look at him now…he as tall as cubes…he still as camp as a row of tents but…he has good bone…nature had sent him into retarded growth mode and as soon as he was getting the correct food…nature kicked in…they a specialist breed…they need more than…they need understanding…they saying less height because whats about today does not have the raising/breeding to carry the height with the mass that the breed was bred to originally have….
forget the breed show standards for the minute…look at what was the ‘ideal’ standard for the field in the 1900’s…that is what they were bred for…and that is what they needed to be….in MHO? it is what they need to be now to save the breed…it is what R furness was trying for…
this is king edward v11 ideal clumbers…and by doG he loved the breed and all our clumbers…. from what was left after his grandson ordered their murder …are from his dogs….they were his fave dogs and he knew what was needed for the shoots…he knew what made a healthy clumber…
‘The appearance of the Clumber is one of a well proportioned, very strong dog with a thoughtful pensive look. The head should be large and square with a broad skull that is deep and with a pronounced stop. The muzzle needs to be heavy and square. The eyes are deeply set and show a small amount of haw and have thoughtful but intelligent gaze. The ears are large and vine leaf shaped, hanging forward and covered with thick hair, both feathered and tucked. The neck is long. broad and thick going down to a long, low-set body with a broad deep chest and well-sprung ribs. the dog needs to have strong, powerful shoulders; straight well-boned front legs and muscular hind legs with low hocks and well set to stifles. The docked tail needs to be set low. The coat is dense, waterpoof but straight or with slight curl, lying flat and silky. The coat colours are white with light liver marks, sometimes with masking and ticking. The Clumber Spaniel is a strong looking working dog with a thoughtful gaze.’
mind what you said? about cuberts neck and chest width…? and yep his hocks sure are low…and his back legs to stifles are so well set i thought he had a problem ::)
how many boys have you seen in the ring with heavy haw…how many top heavy…with weak stifles…how many short backed girls have you seen…
this breed will only survive when the original breed is bred back…and …sorry but…bugger the show ring…bugger the show standard…they have lost the plot…
and val…with you totally on imports generally…but actually…that pup iz… :agree: because sadly…there is little left that looks like the breed should in this country…for me anyway
xxxxNovember 22, 2011 at 6:58 pm #113457
Bev, you still got that link? if so, send it to Val to show her what I poss looking at.November 22, 2011 at 7:01 pm #113458
ermm…if it a pm no if it an email yep…but think i found them earlier when i was looking…
will go searchNovember 22, 2011 at 7:13 pm #113459
sorry…cannot find the link…November 22, 2011 at 7:45 pm #113460
found it ….will email :yes:November 22, 2011 at 7:49 pm #113461
one girlie born, so its not to be 🙁
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