February 27, 2005 at 7:47 pm #65086
Waggi – a lot of pure breeds are struggling and it’s not because people are breeding Labradoodles etc. Cross breeding introduces something called ‘hybrid vigour’ which means the offspring avoid lots of the genetic diseases and disorders that pure breds are struggling with. Not everyone has a crossbreed because of fashion but because they know they are likely to be healthier. Lots of vets are now turning to cross-breeds and I suppose they should know!February 27, 2005 at 9:26 pm #65087AnonymousGuest
I have missed the logic on this how the breeders of lets say Cockapoo dogs breed a healthy dog both these breeds have there own problems and some that are the same problems like eye’s,
in fact looking at the list of these cross breeds they all have problems in common.
I personally agree with Waggi I also think it’s a money making con and I bet the people who breed them do no health checks
http://www.karakara-beardies.co.uk/February 28, 2005 at 10:32 am #65088AnonymousGuest
Hybrid vigour is an urban myth I’m afraid
Crossing for an example a Lab with a standard poodle is mixing two dogs that have genetic defects in common ie HD & PRA add to this SA(SEBACEOUS ADENITIS) that is found in Standard poodles & OCD & HD that is found in very many large breeds.
Also they are not all non shedding & resemble either a lab or a poodle & the GDB have not continued with their breeding plans
If you want a cross breed the local shelters are full of them all the designer dogs are is money making ventures for breeders wanting to make money out of foolish buyersFebruary 28, 2005 at 10:53 am #65089AnonymousGuest
I didnt mean to cause an argument!!!! >:D
thanks ValFebruary 28, 2005 at 11:53 am #65090AnonymousGuest
I think i see what you’re getting at with “hybrid vigour” you’re saying that by widening the gene pool it will help to eradicate these painful and disabling conditions.
This *is* true (if its taken as a fact) BUT (and a big but !!)
this would only offer real benefits if the “true” gene pool was very very poor to the point it could no longer produce healthy dogs at all (and this would only happen through lack of good breeding) AND the breeders did all checks for both breeds AND a bit of good luck in there too as you are esentially creating a different framework you do pose a risk also of introducing new conditions.
x-breeding undermines the standards that good breeders work so hard for. i know there will always be accidental x-breeds (i own one) and alot of them are healthy and lovely dogs but it doesnt mean that they should then be bred also. enjoy the dog you have – not the one(s) you might want but the species dont need.
Claire.February 28, 2005 at 9:40 pm #65091
Wow- this is fun! Never used a message board before so enjoying the discussion! Actually, hybrid vigour (correct term is heterosis) is far from a myth. If you use the dictionary on the internet you will find, like me, that it is defined in the Concise Medical Dictionary as “”the increased sturdiness, resistance to disease, etc, of individuals whose parents are of different races or species compared both with their parents and with the offspring of genetically similar parents.”
Nearly all the pure breed dogs of today have only been around for less than 100 years (and, by the way, all started life as cross-breeds) In that time we have managed with our skillful breeding tecniques, to produce animals that have more genetic diseases and disorders (over 500 at the last count) than any other vertebrate on this planet. Many breeds are now endangered (the Kennel Club has just started a list of vulnerable breeds) and it is entirely caused by the original and small gene pool that was established with the founder dogs of a breed. This gene pool was seriously damaged with incestuous breeding to obtain set ‘desirable’ features. Only about a quarter of the dogs health tested are deemed good for breeding so you have just wiped out three quarters of what there was.
This is really serious and many breeds will disappear very shortly unless ‘new’ blood is introduced.
Shall I shut up now??? Sorry to go on but am really worried about these issuesFebruary 28, 2005 at 10:53 pm #65092AnonymousGuest
I’m glad you think its fun ! It has certainly cheered me up tonight (been feeling unwell the last week or so).
It is good that different people are worried about different issues.. I responded from what I know purely about biology, and it seems too that there is lots of other information available also.
I have to sit on the fence here !! (i know … me? sitting on the fence !!) *smile* I can see Silver and the gene pool point, but also JD’s about conditions and testing and how important they are. The best I can offer is that some breeders have/are artificially keeping alive and sometimes breeding from dogs which under “nat. selection” wouldnt have survived (e.g. bad cases of HD/ED’s would probably get eaten or not become mating dogs in a “pack” as they would be less mobile thus naturally “selecting” for the best scores !) … i use the term pack in “” in recognition of the fact domestic dogs are far removed in many respects from the wolf analogy that seems to be thrust upon them by some popular but not entirely correct authors.
I do sometimes find it hard to think of “naturally occuring” breeds … e.g.
dog 1) well hello there missy are you a
dog 2) ooh no I’m a
dog 1) aah well in that case i’ll have to trot off somewhere else coz i cant possibly mate with you
Who is to say which is really “right” – I think the whole area of hereditary conditions in humans and animals could provide benefits so it is worth someone being curious atleast 🙂February 28, 2005 at 11:21 pm #65093
Sorry to hear you’ve been unwell Piglet but your reply made me smile – particularly liked your doggy dialogue! Can just imagine a Poodle saying “My dear – I wouldn’t been seen dead with a Labrador!”
Hope you’re feeling better now.February 28, 2005 at 11:28 pm #65094AnonymousGuest
the dog dialogue is just something that always comes into mind !!!
p.s. wow its busy in here 2nite !!!
Admin – do you fancy hosting a chat room ?March 4, 2005 at 1:01 pm #65095AnonymousGuest
good surgestion a chat room would be fun
As i said before breeding these dogs for fashion and because they are trendy just isnt right! I dont wear rockports because my good old fashioned traditional HEALTHY border collies are not a fashion statement!!!! and they would chew the shoes
I know somebody who lives near me and she has a chocie lab puppy and a TB horse to go with her timberland jacket – the horse isnt riden and the dog isnt properlly cared for (actually she is my husbands bosses wife)
As said above if you want a cross breed the rescue centres are full of them and lovelly they are – but why make a special breed of them ????
As i said before there are many traditional breeds that are stuggeling and are soon going to be wiped out who wants a labradoole when you can have a curly coated retreverMarch 4, 2005 at 1:36 pm #65096AnonymousGuest
I know a lady who breeds curlies they’re everso nice 🙂
p.s. i think people want labradoodle because they dont drop coat much – curly coateds are like any other dog (except poodles and mexican hairless) and will drop hair.March 4, 2005 at 1:42 pm #65097AnonymousGuest
Thankyou !!!!!March 4, 2005 at 2:03 pm #65098AnonymousGuest
Three somewhat contentious issues
1.Dogs are one race & one species for example you cannot cross a dog with a fox & get viable offspring as their genetic make up is different, you cannot cross a giraffe with an elephant & get viable offspring
To get a true hybrid you would have to cross a dog with a wolf Hybrid vigour doesn’t come into play with mixing different breeds(not species or races)of dogs
2.Most of the 200+ breeds of dogs around the world are in fact well over 100 years old-eg the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel & King Charles Spaniels(or English Toy Spaniel)They were around in the 1500’s & there are painting of these dogs done in the reigh of Queen Elizabeth 1.
There are mastiff types depicted in both british & roman artiquities & looking at other wall painting. sculptures etc going back far more than 100 years there are identifiable breeds of dogs
3.A crossbreed is a animal produced from the mating of two parents of different breeds so how can all the breeds be devolved from crossbreeds ? What were the parents of these crossbreeds ?
Dogs & wolves have common ancestors & the dogs have the same DNA as wolves Try looking at this link http://www.workingdogweb.com/DogOrigins.htm#DISCOVERY
What has happened is that as a dog has shown to be of use for something ie hunting man has arranged breedings between dogs with the same abilities. This is how dogs have developed, over thousands of years not just the last 100March 4, 2005 at 3:19 pm #65099AnonymousGuest
also worth saying that people who do alot of research on wolves (in the wild and captivity) although they are related to domestic dogs dont always know about domestic (pet) dogs.
Claire.March 4, 2005 at 3:22 pm #65100AnonymousGuest
i just think its sad that people cross these dogs for fashion rather than a purpose
and when there are such lovelly native dogs at risk simply because they are not fashionable breeds to have
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.