my boy Max

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  • #77763

    have you had a situation yet when you have seen the dogs before him? and did you try the leave it before he saw the dog/person?

    for me i have to get my cue either before of in that first split second when he’s thinking actually i’m gonna go kid that labs butt cos i think i can…if i miss the leave it cue before he see’s (i say leave he looks around to see what he is leaving) i have the ah ah ah cue if he see dog first and takes those first few steps i get my ah ah ah cue in and he stops dead in track and then turns around and comes back with that yeah yeah ok whatever look if it has gone beyond (ie turn a corner right into a lab) and its instant agression i then have my very stern HEY & back off cue…now this works with beau but not necessarily the other dog so it’ll stop beau and he’ll back off, but i got about 1 second to get myself into a position that can release beau from the dogs sight so we can all move away intact  :yes:

    and don’t forget if you see a dog/person and you think ‘oh crap’ he’s thinking stuff too  :yes: i wasn’t going to get anyway until i learned to relax whilst walking and the only way i could do that was to keep beau on a lead for his walks and avoid people & dogs, then gradually……very gradually it was training from house, to street, to field, to beach, then around people, then walking on extendy lead up beach practicing recall and sits etc, then gradually training with no long line or lead in quiet areas, then slightly busier areas, then off lead when nobody around running & playing with recalls and leave etc, then extendy around people with training & play then off lead….now off lead, i still put him on his lead when i see labs, some he’s fine with but 9 out of 10 he’ll go for…so yeah i’m still avoiding and not quite trusting myself yet but we getting there  :yes:

    hope this didn’t cover too much obvious stuff and helped a little, sorry so long  :happy:

    #77764
    deebee
    Member

    thanks kerry, i do need to do what you have done. sounds like youre doing well.

    focus in house is good for leave it and recall
    outside on street, leave it means nothing when he spots people or dogs when they are close or chips on the floor.
    have had him loose when i think there is no-one around and his recall good, except that as piglet says, i let him go immediately after.
    i have seen most of the other dogs. this time he was loose and i recalled and leashed him (i have done that occasionally), but as soon as he spotted them he was deaf and blind to me. i had in my head that we would walk past and briefly stop to greet. laughable now seeing what the ig did.
    it so wound him up that he jumped out of the car to get to them they couldnt be seen anymore but he was looking in that direction and i only just stopped him.

    focus  i havent got it. when i have treats, he either is in my face/hand to get it or if i give it he immediately goes back to ignoring me.  he walks  a dogs length in front. no amount of turning or stopping changes that. so i am not even in his peripheral view. so i havent even got the fundemental heal close.

    sorry for this post, i am feeling rather deflated and worried that i am making things worse.

    #77765
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hi,

    righto – firstly

    your dog needs to be *TAUGHT* manners – NOT have you let any old dog near him and give him a good telling off if he over steps the mark.  I cannot stress this enough – you dont have enough focus to let him offlead or near to other dogs.  From your post – you are 100% asking for your dog to get into a fight.

    sounds like you are treating him for giving other things his attention – you need a clicker and you need to keep him focussed and on a lead, if he isnt focussed – get out of the situation asap and go back down criteria until you do have his focus.  the same with your recall – you need to mark it and reward – whats the point in a recall if he races back off again ?

    You are making things worse but its because you are pushing things too hard, too fast and lacking proper understanding of what you are trying to do.

    I think you need to stop, take a breather, nothing above C1/2 until you understand the theory. 

    My advice – get Izzie to come round and do the ABCAB on you and give yourself time for that to think in (Iz – can you do this?).  Then let Izzie assess him at C1 and do a “locate” with him and see if she can get a heel-close in the house.  Izzie – remember the difference when you waited for the focus with your heelwork – you thought it wasnt happening for you but as soon as you had her focus it was perfecto 🙂

    Claire.

    p.s. I know I am going against what Bev said and  normally I wouldnt dare and I am sure if she were with you then she’d correct these little things in about 1 second and you’d be letting him off and I just know you’ll be fantastic too BUT she’s away and from your posts I can tell you are potentially heading for disaster letting him off and around other dogs.  So we are “damage limitation” with the dog and doing theory with you to get things clearer for when she’s back and you try again 🙂 

    Izzie – what do you think ?  Would you have time to do ABCAB/conditioning theory and start building heelwork ?

    p.p.s. I have “been there, done this, got the t-shirt” with Bonnie and it was Bev who guided us safely through the rocky path – like you we didnt always get it right and we stuffed up totally alot of the time but slowly and surely … we came out the other side and Bev then showed me that Bonnie was teaching my foster dog Misty how to be a good nice girl and i was so happy i could have cried. 

    YOU WILL GET THERE – just keep saying it 🙂

    Like Kerry says until you are ready to proof the behaviours it is OK to think ahead and avoid situations 🙂  This is a POSITIVE thing to be doing – one day you will have to proof and believe me your heart will be jumping out of your chest but Bev will be there and you will do just great 🙂

    #77766
    deebee
    Member

    got to go to work now but will respond later.

    after reading kerrys post i have come to the same conclusion.

    xx

    #77767

    [quote author=piglet link=topic=12413.msg242441#msg242441 date=1222333176]
    Hi,

    righto – firstly

    your dog needs to be *TAUGHT* manners – NOT have you let any old dog near him and give him a good telling off if he over steps the mark.  I cannot stress this enough – you dont have enough focus to let him offlead or near to other dogs.  From your post – you are 100% asking for your dog to get into a fight.

    sounds like you are treating him for giving other things his attention – you need a clicker and you need to keep him focussed and on a lead, if he isnt focussed – get out of the situation asap and go back down criteria until you do have his focus.  the same with your recall – you need to mark it and reward – whats the point in a recall if he races back off again ?

    You are making things worse but its because you are pushing things too hard, too fast and lacking proper understanding of what you are trying to do.

    I think you need to stop, take a breather, nothing above C1/2 until you understand the theory. 

    My advice – get Izzie to come round and do the ABCAB on you and give yourself time for that to think in (Iz – can you do this?).  Then let Izzie assess him at C1 and do a “locate” with him and see if she can get a heel-close in the house.  Izzie – remember the difference when you waited for the focus with your heelwork – you thought it wasnt happening for you but as soon as you had her focus it was perfecto 🙂

    Claire.

    p.s. I know I am going against what Bev said and  normally I wouldnt dare and I am sure if she were with you then she’d correct these little things in about 1 second and you’d be letting him off and I just know you’ll be fantastic too BUT she’s away and from your posts I can tell you are potentially heading for disaster letting him off and around other dogs.  So we are “damage limitation” with the dog and doing theory with you to get things clearer for when she’s back and you try again 🙂 

    Izzie – what do you think ?  Would you have time to do ABCAB/conditioning theory and start building heelwork ?

    p.p.s. I have “been there, done this, got the t-shirt” with Bonnie and it was Bev who guided us safely through the rocky path – like you we didnt always get it right and we stuffed up totally alot of the time but slowly and surely … we came out the other side and Bev then showed me that Bonnie was teaching my foster dog Misty how to be a good nice girl and i was so happy i could have cried. 

    YOU WILL GET THERE – just keep saying it 🙂

    Like Kerry says until you are ready to proof the behaviours it is OK to think ahead and avoid situations 🙂  This is a POSITIVE thing to be doing – one day you will have to proof and believe me your heart will be jumping out of your chest but Bev will be there and you will do just great 🙂
    [/quote]

    Yes i agree,
    don’t rush it!!!! you really do need that focus, focus = better control
    there is no point rushing and then it all going pear shaped, one step at a time. liver treats and lots of clicker training inside first, then move it outside (still controlled on lead etc) so your dog will learn that the best place is around you, so yes it might be just because you have tasty treats but that really doesnt matter… nobody works for nothing.
    take him out with an empty tummy
    u could always consider using a longline to pracice recall (still using tht clicker!) so you can still be in control.
    practice, practice, practice, small steps and work on cues such as leave it, and watch me first, then once all these are spot on you will feel/be in control :ok:
    i’m sure you behaviourist will help you out all she can 🙂

    #77768
    deebee
    Member

    Hi there. thanks piglet for your comments and pm.

    dogloverwoooo, i have become so confused that it is befuddling my mind and atm that aint hard.
    this is what i thought
    havent much time before puberty
    no clicker out side the house/garden
    no treats on walk, the walk is to be the reward
    get to meet and greet dogs, when showing signs of starting to get silly, walk away loss of reward of greet.

    complete opposite of what has been suggested here  :confused:

    before work i took him on a road walk to and around the rec with very obvious treats (black pudding), he focussed on my hand more and more as he realised i might not be stingey. was rough with my hand but got better. still prefered to lunge at a passerby who suddenly appeared (well, i should have seen him coming, but i was looking at Max). he did keep focussed on the heel work longer though. before i would ‘lure’ him for a moment, give him the treat then he would be off infront again.

    i’d like to know how you think i’m treating him for his attention to other things piglet, so i can stop it.

    had a session in the garden whistle recall then added wait and sit (good call piglet) also some heelclose and his attention didnt go like it usually does. his off lead h.c. is crap normally. he starts messing about or wanders off. this is in the garden, havnt done it anywhere else after trying one time on a walk.

    would 2 road walks a day be plenty? im going to have to drive to find some new ones soon, theres less walkable roads round here than i thought.

    thanks all for your interest and suggestions :-*

    #77769
    Izzie
    Member

    What was your homework from Bev?

    You should be sticking with that hon.

    #77770
    deebee
    Member

    [quote author=deebee link=topic=12413.msg242472#msg242472 date=1222351801]
    havent much time before puberty
    no clicker out side the house/garden
    no treats on walk, the walk is to be the reward
    get to meet and greet dogs, when showing signs of starting to get silly, walk away loss of reward of greet.
    [/quote]

    that was it, i think. as i said, im confused

    #77771
    Izzie
    Member

    Why are you confused hon?

    #77772
    deebee
    Member

    sorry, also whistle recall, stop, sit (my whistle down is no good). leave, yours mine, freeshape. heelwork.

    #77773
    deebee
    Member

    [quote author=Izzie link=topic=12413.msg242477#msg242477 date=1222352175]
    Why are you confused hon?
    [/quote]

    i suppose because what i quoted really isnt working, it is raising his adrenalin not in a good way, so that he is ignoring me. that and what has been suggested here is the opposite.

    thats enough to confuse me

    #77774
    Izzie
    Member

    [quote author=deebee link=topic=12413.msg242480#msg242480 date=1222352608]
    [quote author=Izzie link=topic=12413.msg242477#msg242477 date=1222352175]
    Why are you confused hon?
    [/quote]

    i suppose because what i quoted really isnt working, it is raising his adrenalin not in a good way, so that he is ignoring me. that and what has been suggested here is the opposite.

    thats enough to confuse me
    [/quote]

    Ok, you know what you have to do after having Bev there.

    Stick with your homework and ignore the other advice being offered on here (no offence anyone :)), that way you can stay focused andnot become confused.  🙂

    #77775
    deebee
    Member

    [quote author=deebee link=topic=12413.msg242480#msg242480 date=1222352608]

    i suppose because what i quoted really isnt working, it is raising his adrenalin not in a good way, so that he is ignoring me. [/quote]

    you think i should blindly carry on? surely i should reassess. if something isnt working (in fact escalating the problem), do something else. do you see what i mean?

    #77776
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hi,

    Sorry to confuse you deebee 🙁

    No – I dont think you should blindly carry on.  Advice is all well and good but the situation has changed and the advice IMO needs to change – because now you’ve said about your homework I’ve given it a different approach 🙂

    I gave my advice because I didnt feel you had good control over him off-lead or when he was even seeing other dogs let alone greeting them.  I didnt want you to end up with him in a fight or biting as a result so I gave you my “safe mode” to make sure no harm comes to you two while you are sorting your head out a bit so you know what you’re doing 🙂

    If she is thinking the walk itself is reward enough then you absolutely must “non reward” for behaviour you dont want.  This means that when you are walking he walks heel-close and not infront of you or mouthing your hand you need to use the “turning technique” she’s shown you (thisway heel-close walk on is what i use for a turn towards me) it needs to be delivered fast(ish) and firm and if he breaks it then you turn again straight away no messing if he breaks it a third time i would settle him into a stand in heel position wait for his focus and then try again.  If he’s determined to booger and not learn go in and do it in a while.  Dont even think of rewarding him with a lovely off-lead run at the park until you can get there without him pulling 🙂  

    If you meet another dog on the way (look where your going please you might hurt yourself) re-cue him immediately – i use “leaveit heel-close” or “ahah” if I am doubtful they’ll obey me as they are my strongest cues in that situation (you should be voice rewarding anyway).  Either walk on or turn round – whichever is easiest to get out of the situation, preferrably before you get to the point where he reacts so you remain in control.  Think ahead – avoid any blind corners or bends even if it means you have to cross the road to look and cross back again it’ll be good practice for your cues 🙂

    If you should get to the park then you can use other dogs there to “practice with” – keep just out of the distance you  know he’ll react and keep him focussed on you doing cues and praise etc… and gradually move closer (use an arc or serpentine not head on or from behind) if you lose the focus stop rewards (voice and going to see other dog) and get out back to your safe distance.  Dont get close up to other dogs that are onleads, muzzled, have toys or look tense.  They are indicators that the dog may be more reactive (e.g. other dogs in training, toys are a resource and some dogs guard, muzzles can be for stopping hounds chase or biting and a tense/stressed dog is never a good bet.  Look at the owner too – avoid owners who arent taking a blind bit of notice of their dog, especially if they are on the phone and dont assume anything – dogs can be lovely to kids but awful with other dogs for example 🙂

    I wouldnt let him off-lead as I dont think he would come if you called him when another dog was around.

    Claire x

    #77777
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hi,

    Knowing what you have to do isnt enough to be successful.

    Claire x

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