Need Some Help

[Mudgie]

hackles to me say the dog is “hacked off”

[Justine&Rafe]

They are to make a dog appear larger – but a truly confident dog wouldn’t feel the need to big himself up in this way.

Just like little dogs which attack bigger dogs – an aggressive stance is usually to make the other dog go away because they are insecure or fearful.

Hackles are a bit like that – don’t push it mate, I’m big, look at my hackles!

[Anonymous]

hi,

A This is the assertive, challenging posture: The ears are up, the tail is raised, and the chest is puffed out. It is trying to become as large as possible.

(this is done because the dog feels insecure and fears the other dog approaching any further – it hopes making itself look larger and ‘in yer face’ it will intimidate the other dog into going away)

By this position, the dog is saying, ‘Im the manager and want to be in control of this situation’ to another dog, and sometimes a person.

(because the dog is feeling insecure or fears the situation it has got into, the dog may want to control but is very likely not to have the skills to do so)

It is a communication of confidence, and how the second dog or person responds will determine the outcome.

(it is a communication of confidence – the dog is trying to show itself to have the upper hand and break up the situation while it can still handle it in some way)

If the second dog or person does not offer appeasement or disinterest then it is possible and attack will occur.

(because attack through fear is the first form of defence very often in these dogs)

A true confident dog does sometimes use ears/tail/posture to communicate confidence (Bonnie certainly does) while William who isnt confident always will hackle up and rrrrr (inbetween a growl and talking) hoping to gain control of the situation – making the other dog go away with his dog language.  if he’s allowed to play this behaviour out he’ll either rrrr and hackle at a “safe” distance and flight if the dog continues to approach or if they appease he’ll try and mount (i assume to release out the held stress of greeting)

Claire x

[Justine&Rafe]

Eee Claire, you’re a clever egg aren’t you!  😉

That’s exactly what I was trying to say – only… well… slightly more scientific and generally betterer!

[Anonymous]

ahh i dunno – theres alot to be said for having something explained in different ways 🙂

[Mudgie]

so here is another question in this vane.

Aggressive manic dog barking growling “protecting” his property – head under fence goes mental – all you can see is muzzle…..  Every dog that goes by responds in some way whether it be by barking back or cowering keeping low and moving on or by standing still…..

Why are hackles up prior to approaching even to point of around the corner when anticipating?  Then dog goes to fence with hackles up in fight mode.

[Sweetypye]

1 Hackles going up are a sign of the 4 Fs, flight, fight, freeze or fart about in other words hackles are the visual sign of anticipation.  The dog is getting ready for trouble; hence my statement that a confident assertive dog does NOT raise his hackles, he is not anticipating problems.

2 Passing dogs reinforce the behaviour (similar to the postman syndrome, dog barks, postman leaves ergo dog thinks his behaviour has been successful so does it even MORE the next time).

3 dog displays even more territorial behaviour as it a) thinks that it is under constant threat b) its behaviour is rewarded by removal of the perceived threat

[Anonymous]

lol !!!! sweetypye – i cant believe u said fart lol !!!!!!  you always seem so serious hehe !!!!!

mudgie – or in ‘bevspeak’ its moved on and moved on and moved on …. which gets the behaviour more and more and more ingrained and more sensitive and more reactive and and and …

you end up with a dog like William who was barking when the postman delivered letters 4 doors away and at anyone and everyone who passed – even on the other side of the road !!!

it is VERY hard to break this type of behaviour that has been rewarded and rewarded and rewarded and got ever more sensitised / generalised – it is tough tough work – i know !!!

sounds like this is now so sensitised its the sound/smell of dog is setting it off.  ouch.

Claire x

[Sweetypye]

Many people use fiddle about etc however the consequences are the same, a dog that does NOT freeze, turn round and turn tail or fight will use displacement activity/avoidance by doing something peculiar to send the message that it is not important and not to worry about him eg sniffing, etc.

[Anonymous]

aaahhhh – you mean fart as in ‘fart about’ (displacement) …  :embarrass:  i’ll just hide over here 🙂

[Justine&Rafe]

I love it!  Dogs all over the countryside farting away! 

(I know you said fart about, but it’s funnier without the about)

[SuzAndTheDiva]

Got some fab pics of Honey somewhere doing some serious farting about with a poodle – she was avoiding a fight big time will try find them out.

Only ever see Honey with her hackles up when shes frightened………..

[.dodger.]

[quote author=Sweetypye link=topic=13697.msg260890#msg260890 date=1234964074]
1 Hackles going up are a sign of the 4 Fs, flight, fight, freeze or fart about in other words hackles are the visual sign of anticipation. The dog is getting ready for trouble; hence my statement that a confident assertive dog of does NOT raise his hackles, he is not anticipating problems.
[/quote]

Okay sorry if i get this wrong but what I’m understanding is that dodger raises his hackles in the ‘fight’ sign because he is getting ready for the approaching dog (cause he feels insecure.) So does that mean that in general dodger would be the confident assertive dog of (A) but because of all the other issues it has left him an insecure assertive dog who feels the need to ‘bully’ other dogs to…. something? Don’t know why now? :embarrass:

[Anonymous]

Hi,

If you take the stance that all dogs are natural problem solvers and would avoid a fight at all costs because of the risk of damage to themselves then you think of fights as the last resort in the 4F.  Adaptively, its an option which has the highest risk factor.  However, it is also influenced by previous ‘success’ dog has had in a challenge situation and the re-inforcement of that success.

In dodgers case, another dog approaches into his ‘territory’ moving towards his prized resource (you) who may also have secondary resources (ball, treats) on them. 

You (thinking) – another dog worried how you are going to get by as you know he lunges
You (posture) – stiffen body, tighten grip on lead
You (talking in a worried voice) – blah blah blah blah
Dodger – what … another dog … and my resource is worried … 
Dodger – also stiffens and adrenalin kicks in
You (worried voice again) – good boy dodger
Dodger – rewarded for response and kicks it up a gear raises hackles as other dog still approaching his resource and him and need to be worried

You (thinking) – he’s gonna lunge
Dodger – lunges (you allowing this reinforces behaviour for him
You (thinking) – i knew it he lunged … reinforced YOUR WORRY about situation

this is just an example of how we feed our dogs worry and it kicks in their 4F response – on a leash he cannot Flight, you keep walking so he cannot Freeze or Fart so …. he anticipates his last choice which many dogs are completely unprepared to handle.  He does this with more and more CONFIDENCE because it is reinforced that hackles + lunging gets what he wants the other dog goes away!

The confidence and assertion then is not borne out of a well balanced dog but from one who has built up success in using defense / fear aggression as a way of coping with perceived threats.  He is also giving other dogs signals that he is preparing for a confrontation so they are more likely to react to him.

Claire x

[Justine&Rafe]

Just re-reading this reminded me of a friend who had a boxer – lovely dog, but whenever she had him on the lead he would lunge, bark and generally go for any human or dog that came close.

I spent 30 mins with him just clicking him whenever he looked at me as I walked him round and round a field.

Took him straight out on a walk with her, tugged a little on his lead once.

She couldn’t believe what a difference it made.  (I think it helped that I wasn’t pre-empting his actions, as I led him on the walk)

Think it was what I described elsewhere as watch.  If you can see his hackles going up, and feel yourself tensing, just get him to “watch” you repeatedly until the issue has passed.  If every time they go up he gets distracted, you’ll break a little of that cycle of scare-them-and-they-go-away.

[Author]

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