February 17, 2009 at 7:10 pm #63122RozandFlyMember
Seeking a bit of advice…
Wally is nearly 12 months, and as a rescue, and a merle, I am wanting to get him neutered – I know this is not necessaroly something you all agree with, but I’d appreciate your better knowledge.
I’ve been told by someone that he definately shouldn’t be neutered as he will need all the testosterone etc to help him build muscle to help with his HD.
Is this true?
He’s started humping my collie, which I could do without – though she is neutered, and he has a big thing for humping male dogs in the park – not the ‘go greet’ I want really!!
He’s only the 2nd male dog I’ve had, so could do with some advice as to if to neuter, when, and if not, how do I deal with his urges!!!! ???
Roz, Fly and Wallis the WallyFebruary 17, 2009 at 7:20 pm #86249.dodger.Member
He is only 12 months old and i can image he’s in his teenage prime (not sure on the age scale for a BC) most male dogs goes through the humping stage as they become older and the hormones kick in. I’ve always gone by not to neuter a dog or spay a bitch unless they need it health wise. If some one still wants to get it done i would recommend letting a bitch have at least her first season preferably her second too and make sure that both the dog and bitch are over the age of 18 months.
Dodger has aggressive behaviors to both people and dogs and my parents first reaction was to get his nuts off. After speaking with Bev i decided that it was better for him leaving them on because once done (and done early) it can leave the dog with a chemical scent similar to a bitch in season, which then makes other dogs more interested in him. Not something i want or need for him. We can see this clearly with are other male Benji. He was done very very young and even to this day he tends to get followed and bothered by other entire males.
These are just my opinions but i’m sure there are some other, more knowledgeable, people on here who can offer you with the advise you need 🙂February 17, 2009 at 10:24 pm #86250AnonymousGuest
IMO you’d be totally mental to neuter him.
Laura – some BC’s never grow out of ‘teenage’ a year is still just a pup in the mind, tho you are right he’ll have had his testosterone surges 9-12mths I expect.
Roz – Humping is a behaviour – by now it will have been conditioned and the ONLY way to stop it is to manage it and re-mod in exactly the same way any other behaviour is dealt with. Neutering will just set him back, cost you money and put further serious risk on his health.
Yes – it is correct he needs all the hormones he can get – i didnt make that very rude comment (sorry again) to be deliberately nasty – it was just an observation and he NEEDS bone and muscle, anything you can ‘give’ him will help this.
My advice :
If you dont want him humping your girl (or other dogs) then manage him properly and stop letting him do it (and thus getting rewarded for it). If you dont the behaviour is very likely to only get worse.
The humping (both male and female) could be a sign that he’s confident enough to feel he is above these dogs in pack structure – be careful as any self respecting collie girl will only take so much and is likely to give him the mother of all bollockings before too long if he doesnt stop 😉 Boys will either accept or he would be unlikely to get on coz from my experience they give clear ‘piss-off squirt’ signals.
Perhaps as Meg’s mommy has been Bevv’d maybe she could maybe give you some tips for managing? If he wont recall from a dog he’s heading to mount you need him back on the lead until your recall / leaveit is better.
Claire xFebruary 17, 2009 at 10:39 pm #86251IzzieMember
Did the rescue not stipulate having him neutured then?
i know most do, some dontFebruary 17, 2009 at 10:43 pm #86252AnonymousGuest
IMO they dont deserve to stipulate anything after this cockup !! IMO – I would suggest they do what is best for THE DOG and since they have homed him to someone they presumably think is trustworthy and has demonstratedone hell of a lot of commitment to this dog then they should indeed trust her and at the very least let him have his nuts for another year or two.
Claire.February 17, 2009 at 10:54 pm #86253IzzieMember
Jeez was only asking a question claireFebruary 17, 2009 at 10:57 pm #86254AnonymousGuest
Jeez … i dont see where it is aimed at you Izzie ?February 18, 2009 at 8:49 am #86255Justine&RafeMember
Ah c’mon, nice now.
I had Rafe neutered at 12 months for a number of reasons – until I came on the forum I was of the opinion that, healthwise it was the best thing to do. Now I believe there are convincing arguments either way, but he already had them off by then.
I never intended to breed from him because he is by no means conformationally perfect, and has probable OCD in his shoulder.
But no 1 reason was that I was struggling to control him. He humped EVERYTHING. And seemed to have a thing for old, infirm or injured dogs of either sex. I was constantly having to race up and drag him off a dog while its owner (quite rightly) had a go.
And having him done has helped a lot. BUT it hasn’t stopped the behaviour by any means. He’s still quite a humpy dog, but he’s far less persistent with it.
If you can work through it with training, by all means take that route. I found that neutering helped me with his control, but don’t expect the humping to just disappear overnight, you’ll still have to put some training in to get him over it.
And Claire is absolutely right about a lot of humping being to do with general social interactions – I’d heard it was an insecurity thing, but Claire’s thing makes far more sense!February 18, 2009 at 8:57 am #86256SweetypyeMember
At 12 months old your male dog has more testosterone going through him than at any other time; just think him of him as an oversexed, spotty teenager that can think of nothing else.
So his current behaviour does not necessarily presage future outlook.
Also humping is often misconstrued as purely sexual behaviour when it is just an expression of over excitement seen in 8 week old puppies and bitches. When dogs are very aroused in excitement this is the expression of that excitement.
Humping other dogs is not an issue provided you have sufficient control because of course he should not be able to access other dogs except by your express permission and if he does exhibit this behaviour then access can be restricted by that technical device, a lead.
IMHO I would never neuter either sex prior to maturity (at least 18 months in most dogs) unless there were overwhelming environmental reasons to do so as these hormones govern more than procreation but physical and mental development. This is because my dogs are performance dogs.
For pets it is not so crucial.
But as in everything the individual owner must decide what is best for their own individual circumstances.
You may find the following articles of use.February 18, 2009 at 9:47 am #86257AnonymousGuest
Although SP says its not so crucial for pets, I would say this is one of the cases where there are definite advantages to the dog to stay entire – certainly through the teenage period and into proper adulthood. This is because I think it will give him a better chance with his hips and bone mass.
As Justine says, she got some benefit from it but I also think its added to her issues aswell in some ways.
Jus – I would class excitement as “mental stress” (as it is a positive form) and from my experience with a serially addicted humper in kennels … can be used as an outlet for coping with life – positive or negative.
William has the odd dog he would hump if you let him but he’s the happiest little man being ‘bottom of the pack’ – I would say that its excitement coupled with stress which drives this as its only ever entire males but more than that … its 2 or 3 very specific dogs who are bouncy – if you were describing it you’d probably say ‘he wants to play but gets stressed when the other dog doesnt play his game because he only knows 1 game’ – Rafe would probably fit in this category if he wasnt neutered as the others are all big nutty boy gundogs thinking about it – curly, vizzie and a goldie 😉
Claire xFebruary 18, 2009 at 10:03 am #86258RozandFlyMember
Your comments are really useful.
Claire, it wasn’t a comment that you made that caused me to ask this, but someone at agility training – but I appreciate your comments!
It is generally stipulated by the rescue centres that all their dogs are neutered, but as you’ve all said, given his HD and that none of the other rules were observed, I will make all decisions from here!
I would never breed from a rescue dog anyway, let alone Wally – can you imagine!! :ugly:
So it is purely an issue of HD – and if keeping him whole will help that then that’s what I’ll do.
My last dog was neutered as soon as we rescued him, and was slightly older – and given that he would sooner tear apart a dog than try and hump it, that was never an issue – oh how I wish this forum and Bev had been around in those days. My experience of male dogs humping has therefore been from the side of having a bitch that other dogs want to hump!
Claire’s comments re behaviour of humping is really valid – he was quite nervous when I got him and has started being more confident with other dogs, progressing to humping, so it makes sense. I have behvaviour issues with him anyway, in that his attention when there are other dogs around is non-existent so I need to really train that before I can attempt to do anything else.
Hopefully when we can get the basics we can start managing this.
Fly varies between enjoying his attention and telling him where to go – and I think in general they are still sorting out the top dog issue. Wally tries to boss her around but soon learns that she’s not to be messed with.
So – many thanks – and all help in future re his training and my frustrations will be very gratefully received.
Roz, Fly and Wallis the WallyFebruary 18, 2009 at 10:09 am #86259AnonymousGuest
hehe – fly sounds a good top girl – am sure she probably knows exactly who is top 🙂 patient and letting him think he’s strutting his hot studmuffin stuff and gentle reminders actually she’s boss !! LOL 🙂
i bet they put a smile on your face to watch hehe 🙂
does she do a ‘oh get off me’ when he is humping ? if so you could look at re-enforcing this to give some management to her as she seems a good girlie 🙂
claire xMarch 6, 2009 at 8:29 am #86260kizkiznobiteMember
it does take careful mananging…i had forgotten just how much to be honest not having had a male pup for over 30 years… ::) cubert started young…prob as ami is entire and went pre season at a time he was getting a hormone surge….now, at one year old the cues we put in place then are paying off…stuff like not here, put it away, manners as the pre warning when the body behaviour was telling us that he was heading for a ‘session’ and such…and yep claire has a valid point with re fly…we re-enforced ami’s ‘tell him’ that started with boisterous play attacks when he was tiny and now if he tries to take liberties with her she looks to me for the ‘can i tell him then?’ and boy does she…big time..thathas moved on some too recently as the second she goes to tell him he loses the will 😀 and rols on his back with ‘ok ok it not coming out’ he got mo a couple of times and will occasionally think ah mo’s leg but mo did the classic..stop it leave me alone pushing against him stuff…re-enforced it in other words…he went to get me only once from behind at the klitchen sink…and he wont do it again….a loud scream with a lot of foot stamping and jumping up and down with i am not having this while i banged my hand on the breakfast bar worked wonders…the rule is punish the behaviour and not the dog..so you pretend to lose your temper without actually touching the dog
you have to watch for the behaviour starting
you need a series of cues..mine are
manners given as a low warning when the body language tells me it about to commence
rude given as a louder low voiced warning if erection has started
a firm put it away if I have missed the above
not here said with attitude. there please go finish it off …isolated with a hump cushion…if I miss all of the above
and a good female to smack across the chops helps
the problem is if it is not managed then it becomes learnt behaviour….and that remains in many cases even after castration…so castration or not is really not the main issue …it all comes back to training and management regardless by 16 months boyos that have had this sort of conditioning generally all settle out …like SP said…just like teenage males
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