Positive punishment

[Anonymous]

[quote author=dogwood link=topic=12543.msg243234#msg243234 date=1222780780]
we do think rattles, discs and spray collars (not shock) have a time when to be used,

We had a friends grey hound come to stay, she is a lovely thing, very well behaved, well until recently, started to pick up a bad habit… stealing bread, and of course the owners forgot to tell us. Here’s how we found out, one day i looked out of the window to find her in the back garden munching her way through a  loaf of bread, luckily she was not to ill just a bad case of dyeria. By the way bread was in a sealed container on our work surface.
Anyway the solution we found was a tin filled with coins, we placed the bread on the floor, every time she went towards it we shook the tin, next we left the bread on the work surface with the tin of coins on top of it, we then left the room. suddenly we heard the tin fall to the floor, yes you guessed it she had another attempt at the bread. only this time she did not like the noise of the tin falling to the floor and ran into another room, all we have to do now is leave the tin by the bread and she will not go near it. (the tin to her is a no go area) 
[/quote]

Would it not have been easier to just not leave the bread where the dog could reach it?

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Val link=topic=12543.msg242952#msg242952 date=1222635945]
Always started with pups and I never give tit-bit rewards for doing what comes naturally my praise is enough but before they are sent onto sheep, geese whatever they are trained with tit-bits to work off the left or right, and all the usual distance control dropping etc, the best training I have ever found is working with an older dog especially a mother and daughter.
With them I can just lean on a gate and have a fag  ;D we are starting with a young beardie and Eshia after Xmas as long as she’s fit Eshia that is not the pup my farmer friend has got a young one at last off a litter of farm beardies at Woole the guy there works four and he bred one
Val
[/quote]

What about when you were going to but foot and mouth happened before you got the chance…. and by the time it was over you had a stroppy teenage doglet…  :-\  🙁

And as for bread… don’t leave it where dog can get it….  :agree:

Had an incident – took Dorain to friend’s house – he nicked loaf of homecooked bread off dining table….  :-[ But was OK – only a couple of tooth marks, dusted it off, put it back and everyone ate it quite happily – and people never even noticed.  ;D Can see we won’t be getting many dinner invites now….  :-X :-X ;D

[Anonymous]

Hi,

how awful – a grey aswell known for sensitivity 🙁  you’d be one ex friend if you’d done this to my stealy girl.  She still steals happily when I forget but luckily now thats not too often 🙂

Claire.

[Dree]

[quote author=piglet link=topic=12543.msg243265#msg243265 date=1222795197]
Hi,

how awful – a grey aswell known for sensitivity 🙁  you’d be one ex friend if you’d done this to my stealy girl.  She still steals happily when I forget but luckily now thats not too often 🙂

Claire.
[/quote]

All of my dogs are thieves.  I just make sure everything is well out of the way.  If someone did that to my dogs, I’d be furious.  >:(

[*Lassie*]

[quote author=Dree link=topic=12543.msg243272#msg243272 date=1222797454]

All of my dogs are thieves.  I just make sure everything is well out of the way.  If someone did that to my dogs, I’d be furious.  >:(
[/quote]

Maybe I should borrow your dogs, it would be one way of get my OH and son to put things away instead of leaving stuff littered all over the kitchen ;D

[SuzAndTheDiva]

urrrr ok, i can see WHY you did that – but whats the dog actually learnt? that the tin is a no go area – ummm ok thats fine – she hasnt actually learnt NOT to steal bread has she – i bet shed still have a go if the tin isnt there. So ultimately you forget the tin – dogs gonna eat the bread.

I say leave the bread in a high up cupboard  😉

Our collie too was an atrocious thief – bad legs is the only thing thats stopped him – even now we still are in the habit of hiding food from him!

[Dree]

We had a rescue collie in once.  I went into his outside run, emptied his stainless steel water dish to take it away and replace with fresh water.  As I walked away, he bit the back of my leg…it really hurt!…and I didn’t even think….I whacked him on the head with the dish.  He never bit anyone on the back of the leg or ankles again.  That was the main reason he was in rescue…..he was biting the kids ankles.  Now……was that positive punishment?  😉

[Anonymous]

hi,

oops – sounds like a worker boy with no bite inhibition and maybe you took away the one thing he still viewed as “his” after being rescued … no wonder he wasnt near any sheep – no-one wants their stock damaged by a biting dog.

what i want to know is did he drink water out of the nasty ouchie water bowl again ?

claire x

p.s. dont get me wrong here it was terrifying at first and put us through hell more than once but i find it quite ammusing now when bonnie steals i know i shouldnt but the real harmful stuff is well out the way – she snaffled a croissant off my plate while i answered a quick post the other day and I got her to release it ALL !!!!  – if she does this can i safely then give her it back as a reward because i love her and all but it was real sticky with dog juices and i didnt want it !! ???

[Dree]

[quote author=piglet link=topic=12543.msg243329#msg243329 date=1222811829]
hi,

oops – sounds like a worker boy with no bite inhibition and maybe you took away the one thing he still viewed as “his” after being rescued … no wonder he wasnt near any sheep – no-one wants their stock damaged by a biting dog.

what i want to know is did he drink water out of the nasty ouchie water bowl again ?

claire x
[/quote]

As far as we know, he was off cow working stock…..hence the ankle nipping.  And, yes, he drank water from his bowl.  🙂  Never bothered him.

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Dree link=topic=12543.msg243318#msg243318 date=1222807318]
We had a rescue collie in once.  I went into his outside run, emptied his stainless steel water dish to take it away and replace with fresh water.  As I walked away, he bit the back of my leg…it really hurt!…and I didn’t even think….I whacked him on the head with the dish.  He never bit anyone on the back of the leg or ankles again.  That was the main reason he was in rescue…..he was biting the kids ankles.  Now……was that positive punishment?  😉
[/quote]

Have been thinking about this one.  🙂

I am aware of what ‘positive punishment’ is – though I suspect my views on it are likely to be the similar to Mudgie’s when she posts them.  ;D

But on that particular case…

Were there not some sort of rescue policies for how to handle aggressive dogs that had come in – I have no idea what capacity you were there as but I would imagine that most rescues wouldn’t let any worker handle or in the kennel of a known aggressive dog? And while I understand it being an instinctive reaction when in pain to lash out – surely, since the dog was a working bred collie, and was in the rescue for nipping the backs of legs, to some extent you would have been anticipating him doing that when you turned round – as it was a herding behaviour he was already known to be performing?  :-\

On the positive punishment point… if I was getting a dog from a rescue and was told that it had come in for herding nipping behaviour but this had been ‘cured’ by positive punishment – specifically by wopping the dog over the head with a water bowl on one occasion- I wouldn’t feel confident that the dog was safely modified myself.  :scared: I would also suspect that the behaviour could have been successfully remodified using positive reinforcement since it stopped so quickly – and that it had been caused by the instinctive behaviour of a working collie being misunderstood by the owners – as so often happens – and not properly trained and channelled.

I have to confess that, particularly in the case of aggressive dogs, I feel safer if they have been remodified using positive – as in reinforcement not punishment  😉 – techniques.

Thoughts?  🙂

Waaaags, you do collies!!

[*Lassie*]

Don’t think it was at a rescue centre but one Dree took in to help. You may know what the dog has been turned out for but you will always get moments when you are not fully concentrating and something like the nip happens. The smack on the head would be an instinctive reaction not a thought out punishment.

[GSPmad]

I said I expected the smack on the head would be instinctive reaction Lassie…  🙂 That wasn’t the bit I was asking about.

[Anonymous]

if you were asking if centres have policies – i would say that many do not even charity run ones.  i was let in with dogs worse than leg nippers – even dogs who had done full bites with minimal training from someone who didnt really know what she was doing in the slightest !

claire.

[SuzAndTheDiva]

[quote author=Dree link=topic=12543.msg243318#msg243318 date=1222807318]
We had a rescue collie in once.  I went into his outside run, emptied his stainless steel water dish to take it away and replace with fresh water.  As I walked away, he bit the back of my leg…it really hurt!…and I didn’t even think….I whacked him on the head with the dish.  He never bit anyone on the back of the leg or ankles again.  That was the main reason he was in rescue…..he was biting the kids ankles.  Now……was that positive punishment?  😉
[/quote]

positive punishment – nope i call that totally uneccesary – made me so sad to read that.

And I do think GSP bought up some valid points………………..

[Dree]

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12543.msg243356#msg243356 date=1222874195]

Have been thinking about this one.  🙂

I am aware of what ‘positive punishment’ is – though I suspect my views on it are likely to be the similar to Mudgie’s when she posts them.  ;D

But on that particular case…

Were there not some sort of rescue policies for how to handle aggressive dogs that had come in – I have no idea what capacity you were there as but I would imagine that most rescues wouldn’t let any worker handle or in the kennel of a known aggressive dog? And while I understand it being an instinctive reaction when in pain to lash out – surely, since the dog was a working bred collie, and was in the rescue for nipping the backs of legs, to some extent you would have been anticipating him doing that when you turned round – as it was a herding behaviour he was already known to be performing?  :-\
[/quote]

He was in our own kennels.  We took on dogs from the vet that had been brought in to be pts.  Vet would phone us up, and we only had the owners explanation of what was going on.  (And often that is not very reliable.)  The vet would phone because the dog was young and healthy.  I can’t remember if we actually knew why this dog had been brought in, or we guessed after him going at my legs!  We actually kept him for some time….can’t remember exactly, but around 9mths.  We re-trained him, and found a home for him.  I suspect if I had known that he was a “nipper” I would have anticipated his actions…..so I suspect we didn’t know until he bit me.  Honestly can’t remember.  We had a few rescue dogs….mostly collies.  🙁

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12543.msg243356#msg243356 date=1222874195]
On the positive punishment point… if I was getting a dog from a rescue and was told that it had come in for herding nipping behaviour but this had been ‘cured’ by positive punishment – specifically by wopping the dog over the head with a water bowl on one occasion- I wouldn’t feel confident that the dog was safely modified myself.  :scared: I would also suspect that the behaviour could have been successfully remodified using positive reinforcement since it stopped so quickly – and that it had been caused by the instinctive behaviour of a working collie being misunderstood by the owners – as so often happens – and not properly trained and channelled.

I have to confess that, particularly in the case of aggressive dogs, I feel safer if they have been remodified using positive – as in reinforcement not punishment  😉 – techniques.
[/quote]

Yep, I agree.  ;D 

[Author]

Posts