Positive punishment

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Dree link=topic=12543.msg243463#msg243463 date=1222964654]
[quote author=Mudgie link=topic=12543.msg243455#msg243455 date=1222959509]
I never said I was perfect – far from it.

This is a learning curve for us all – every day we are learning well I certainly am but I dont agree with punishing a dog – big difference between making mistakes and learning from them than using collars and endorsing them.

Unfortunately dogs dont get the concept of “sorry” – I do my best I do what I think is right as we all do but I can say hand on heart I have never deliberately physically hurt my dog(s) – it is only my opinion Lassie – we are all here to learn for ourselves and our dogs.

[/quote]

I must admit it has taken me a little while to be able to reply to the vitriole that has been posted on here.  My thanks to Lassie and Sweetypye for understanding.  From giving a dog a tap on the head (once in my life) to using shock collars is quite a jump.  Mudgie:-  I have never deliberately hurt any dog/s either.  If you read my post again, my reaction was instant….it was not a planned reaction.

You said, Mudgie:- why use an electric shock collar when you could just whack it on the head with a dog bowl  and quite honestly I was really hurt by that.  I’m not quite sure why you are using such an analogy……it would seem that for putting an honest reaction (and asking for opinion on it) on a board, I then go on to be villified and compared to CM.  One tap with a dog bowl becomes using collars and endorsing them as you said.  Are you really trying to say that because I (once) smacked a dog, I then go on to using shock collars???

It would be nice to actually have a decent discussion about why it happened, how it happened, did it work, why did it work, etc., etc. (as in an actual discussion on the heading!) rather than have people (who seem to be more than perfect) tear the action apart, and then sink to comparing it (and therefore me?) to someone who uses shock collars, and have the whole subject deteriorate into a what an awful person I am.  To say that you are discouraging discussion is putting it rather mildly.

[/quote]

I assume that you are referring to my post since you are talking about CM and shock collars. If you read it you will see that I was making those as general points re positive punishment – as I specifically stated – not targeted and vitriolic.  ::) The only points relating to your ‘bowl on head’ – were the ones specifically pointed at that.

I actually was trying to have a discussion re the title of the thread and what was posted…. I have spent quite enough of my life being told that my opinions aren’t valid… I am entitled to my opinions and I thought that was the point of a discussion forum – to discuss opinions. Clearly I was mistaken – or if not then presumably that doesn’t include my opinions.

[Anonymous]

Hi,

Izzie – that was kinda my point too re: temprament working with difficult dogs. 

GSP – touche x x x

Claire x

[Dree]

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12543.msg243468#msg243468 date=1222967260]

I assume that you are referring to my post since you are talking about CM and shock collars. If you read it you will see that I was making those as general points re positive punishment – as I specifically stated – not targeted and vitriolic.  ::) The only points relating to your ‘bowl on head’ – were the ones specifically pointed at that.

I actually was trying to have a discussion re the title of the thread and what was posted…. I have spent quite enough of my life being told that my opinions aren’t valid… I am entitled to my opinions and I thought that was the point of a discussion forum – to discuss opinions. Clearly I was mistaken – or if not then presumably that doesn’t include my opinions.
[/quote]

I was replying to Mudgie’s comments which followed after your post….as highlighted in my post.  As to your specific question…..which I believe I’ve already answered elsewhere, but there are so many posts, I’m losing the plot a bit.

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12543.msg243468#msg243468 date=1222967260]
But – when you say that dogs sometimes respond better to an instant spontaneous action – are you trying to say that positive punishment methods are good and justifiable?   
In what situation would you consider their use appropriate?
[/quote]

No, I’m not….but honesty is better than deliberate. 

[Mudgie]

so it is okay to hit a dog on the head with a bowl but not okay to use an e collar  ???  

The point i am making is that I dont agree with either – each to their own.

Pack managers should be in control – hitting a dog on the head is not being in control – it is not positive it is and will only ever be punishment – in my uneducated non training capacity opinion – just a mere dog owner doing the best for my pooch – using coins in jars, throwing discs at their paws, using water bottles, e collars, whatever – none of them are for me or my dogs – I will always find another way

[Anonymous]

training discs aint meant to be thrown at or even very close to the dog – just shows you the potential for mis-use they have !!

claire.

p.s. mudgie dont die of shock or something but i agree 🙂

[Dree]

[quote author=Mudgie link=topic=12543.msg243482#msg243482 date=1222973348]
so it is okay to hit a dog on the head with a bowl but not okay to use an e collar  ???  

The point i am making is that I dont agree with either – each to their own.

[/quote]

I give up.  You read into what has been said what you want to read.  There is no attempt at understanding at all. 

But…..what do you think of the alpha female telling off (by nipping) lower ranking females?  Is this positive punishment?  If not, what is it?

Izzie….if you would be kind enough to reply to my post re: wolves, etc., I will return the favour.  😉

[Izzie]

[quote author=Dree link=topic=12543.msg243493#msg243493 date=1222976824]
[quote author=Mudgie link=topic=12543.msg243482#msg243482 date=1222973348]
so it is okay to hit a dog on the head with a bowl but not okay to use an e collar  ???  

The point i am making is that I dont agree with either – each to their own.

[/quote]

I give up.  You read into what has been said what you want to read.  There is no attempt at understanding at all. 

But…..what do you think of the alpha female telling off (by nipping) lower ranking females?  Is this positive punishment?  If not, what is it?

Izzie….if you would be kind enough to reply to my post re: wolves, etc., I will return the favour.  😉
[/quote]

Sorry Dree, I didnt see your question re: wolves

[Mudgie]

No I dont understand – what I dont understand is how anything regarded as punishment could be positive – and as far alpha female being in control then yes I do relate to that  🙂 – when a human hits a dog or punishes a dog then there is no reward or control – not in my opinion anyhow.

[*Lassie*]

Lassie – interesting you think i am wrong for ‘reacting’ when you are just as insulting and rude.

I just asked a simple question, who was your comment aimed at as I didn’t understand it

Quote from: piglet on Today at 10:13:36 AM
Hi,

OK – this is very interesting –

The situation does not parallel ‘real life’ in *ANY* way !!

i’m gonna do a bev on you and throw it out because i know why not but …. do you ?

and can you think of any more common examples where people incorrectly cite this ?

You can answer another question –  in what part was I insulting and rude or is it just you that can have an opinion on this subject.
I was giving an honest opinion on the way I read what Dree had said, no where did she say that she agreed with beating up dogs.
But accepting that pet dog owners will of course respond to a bite, do you not think as a trainer and a behaviourist working with aggressive dogs as per your previous posts you should be trained to not react to a bite ?
Have you ever had a bad dog bite?
The SAS may be trained to accept pain but I don’t think it’s part of any dog trainers course.
We were taught at Sunday school’ who ever is free from sin let them cast the first stone’
We must have plenty of saints on this board 🙁

[Anonymous]

Cheesy Wotsit anyone?  :canadian:

[Kerry_and_Beau]

deleted as it was maybe a bit beyond what was necessary  🙁

[*Lassie*]

[quote author=Mark. link=topic=12543.msg243502#msg243502 date=1222978802]
Cheesy Wotsit anyone?  :canadian:
[/quote]

Mark ;D ;D ;D

Think you are too late – the pack is already circling for the kill 😉
Think some of us are about the be blackballed ::)

[Anonymous]

Several pages back i mentioned a saying within the dog world that goes something like – ‘The only thing 2 dog trainers will ever agree on is that the 3rd trainer is wrong’.

:embarrass:

[*Lassie*]

and lassie when you snapped and hit your baby how did you feel afterwards?

have either of you thought oh my god how could i have done that? did it make you re think about how you are yourself how you deal with things? did you learn to try to avoid being in that same situation again?
As I had post natal depression  it could have been worse, he is now a grown man and we are close, it’s the  oh my god how could you have done that? attitude  that makes it hard to make honest posts on here for fear of being judged. Someone said that the last person to never make a mistake was crucified 2000 years ago, we haven’t learnt a lot about tolerance since then. It is hard to ‘read’ what a person is like from the written word, we normally read body language when we communicate with others but on the net we can’t. What we can do is read posts carefully and give people the benefit of doubt rather than just see what we want to see and make snap judgements. 

[GSPmad]

[quote author=*Lassie* link=topic=12543.msg243509#msg243509 date=1222980367]
and lassie when you snapped and hit your baby how did you feel afterwards?

have either of you thought oh my god how could i have done that? did it make you re think about how you are yourself how you deal with things? did you learn to try to avoid being in that same situation again?
As I had post natal depression  it could have been worse, he is now a grown man and we are close, it’s the  oh my god how could you have done that? attitude  that makes it hard to make honest posts on here for fear of being judged. Someone said that the last person to never make a mistake was crucified 2000 years ago, we haven’t learnt a lot about tolerance since then. It is hard to ‘read’ what a person is like from the written word, we normally read body language when we communicate with others but on the net we can’t. What we can do is read posts carefully and give people the benefit of doubt rather than just see what we want to see and make snap judgements. 
[/quote]

I didn’t think anyone was judging anyone – comments were on actions rather than people. I certainly was just trying to debate a subject. And the body language wouldn’t be much help to me TBH…

I have done plenty things that I regret and I am far from perfect. Who isn’t and who hasn’t?

Yes I have that fear of making honest posts on here – but same with every forum TBH – and in fairness people can only go on what is actually said and generally that is what they are doing.

Overdoses… that takes me back… not taken one of those since I was 13…..

[Author]

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