raw neoteny question.

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  • #62132
    Diesel73
    Member

    Other thread got me thinking. Was wondering about this for days now. Have to ask.

    My boys generaly don’t like dogs. Love the girlies, but don’t like dogs. They do however respond different to certain breeds. Small dogies are fine. Anything from mediumsize male dogs is ‘greeted’ (if one can call it that  ::).
    Medium sizes sometimes do get told of, but always the ‘i’m so macho-strudd’.
    Labs, Goldens, setters…. the macho strudd, but the ‘hello’ depends on how the dog responds to them.
    Bulldogs, Rotties, Bordeauxdogs… they don’t get. Like as if they are trying to communicate with a cat. Often they just rrrrealy don’t like the dog for being one of those breeds.

    But Saarlooswolfdogs…. Whàt a match for my boyo’s. I know someone who has 2 Saarloosboys. His and  mine, not fond of eachother. Not fond of eachother at all, but always mutual respect. No fights, no grumbles, no nothing. Curiousity, quick sniff here and there, as good as same bodymovements, done, we move on.
    This monday we encountered the most drop dead Tjechyslowakie wolfdog….. I thought it was a girl, as good as Wodan got on with it. But nope  :surprise: , it was an entire boy alright.

    So question is; does my boys get on with those breeds-saarloos and Tjech- because they behave simular to them? They way those breeds hold their head, say hello, the machostrudd…. They look very identical. Is it because they can understand eachother better, so there no communication misunderstandings?

    The Tchech was accompanied by his doggieladyfriend (can’t remember her breed, was blownaway impressed by the beeeeautiful Tchech  ::) ). Both my boys didn’t even check her out. The chech just came up to Wodan, doing Wodan’s strudd, and Wodan just walked up to him doing the same strudd. Tails high, heads up, chests blown. Noses met. Each stuck their nose under the other’s belly to take a sniff. Noses met again, quick mutual licks on the kisser and off they went, each in seperate ways.
    This never happend befor, other than with the 2 Saarloos we meet from time to time. Never any play either though. But this boy, the Tjech…. We never met befor, yet it was as if Wodan and Diesel have known him for ages. The ‘hello’, sniffsniff, you got a sausage too… That’s when Wodan lot of times puts his foot on the other’s behind or neck. But nope, no such thing, Wodan even gave him a quick lick back when the Tjech gave him a kiss. And Wodan never ever licked another boydog except Diesel when he was little. Was talking to the tjech mistress. She said too that that didn’t happen to often with her boy, although he was much of a fighter anyways.
    But do my boys just understand him better?  Better than other breeds, that is?

    Edit; might edit it some more, keep finding spelling errors  ::) .

    #69285

    you of all know me well diesel..so keep going..keep editing and adding…more info  and more thoughts…
    all those whats whys and and wheres….and in all this…where was diesel boy? 😉 he there …as you said but what was he doing and saying as wodan did his diffusing…

    #69286
    Anonymous
    Guest
    quote :

    Bulldogs, Rotties, Bordeauxdogs

    they all have similar skull / face types – i know some dogs find these harder to ‘read’

    Claire x

    #69287
    *Lassie*
    Member

    Any chance of a picture of the breeds?  please :-*
    Saarloosboys and Tjechyslowakie wolfdog

    #69288
    .dodger.
    Member

    dodger has issues with male dogs except shepherd’s. If they young and small he is very friendly with them, lots of playing, no growling with only a few ‘putting them in their place’ telling off’s. With older bigger shepherds he does the ear’s back slinking around them thing and if they tell him off he backs off unlike his normal dive back in self.

    ooo and saarloos wolfhounds are stunning!

    #69289
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Here is a pic of the Saarloo wolfhound

    [quote author=*Lassie* link=topic=12486.msg241381#msg241381 date=1221765826]
    Any chance of a picture of the breeds?  please :-*
    Saarloosboys and Tjechyslowakie wolfdog
    [/quote]


    Attachments:

    #69290

    pretty!  :yes:

    #69291
    Lucyr
    Member

    Are you in the UK?  Just a thought as true pure bred Sarloos are not allowed entry to the UK unless the owner has a wild animal licence and they are kept under very strict conditions!  Only know this because my friend lives in France (very good friends of Sean Ellis – the wolf man in Devon) and she is not allowed to legally bring her Sarloos into the UK. 

    Back to the question in hand, I find some dogs are harder to read by others and this can cause them to act aggressively etc.  Some of the Spitz breeds get ‘sized’ up as such because of their pricked up ears, coat standing on end and tail held high’ all natural to that breed but can be read differently by other breeds.

    #69292
    *Lassie*
    Member

    [quote author=Val link=topic=12486.msg241473#msg241473 date=1221770556]
    Here is a pic of the Saarloo wolfhound

    [quote author=*Lassie* link=topic=12486.msg241381#msg241381 date=1221765826]
    Any chance of a picture of the breeds?  please :-*
    Saarloosboys and Tjechyslowakie wolfdog
    [/quote]
    [/quote]

    Thanks Val :-*

    #69293

    wow stunning dogs  :yes:

    [quote author=Val link=topic=12486.msg241473#msg241473 date=1221770556]
    Here is a pic of the Saarloo wolfhound

    #69294
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Lucyr – not the UK … his breed gives him away

    Claire x

    #69295
    Diesel73
    Member

    [quote author=*Lassie* link=topic=12486.msg241596#msg241596 date=1221842739]
    [quote author=Val link=topic=12486.msg241473#msg241473 date=1221770556]
    Here is a pic of the Saarloo wolfhound

    [quote author=*Lassie* link=topic=12486.msg241381#msg241381 date=1221765826]
    Any chance of a picture of the breeds?  please :-*
    Saarloosboys and Tjechyslowakie wolfdog
    [/quote]
    [/quote]

    Thanks Val :-*
    [/quote]
    Saarloos 1/2 wolf 1/2 German shep. Tjech 3/4 wolf 1/4 German shep. Tjech’s face sharper than Saarloos. More wolf blood shows in his face and body.

    [quote author=piglet link=topic=12486.msg241610#msg241610 date=1221845456]
    Lucyr – not the UK … his breed gives him away

    Claire x
    [/quote]
    Nope, bred born and raised Belgian  😉 .

    [quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12486.msg241355#msg241355 date=1221758900]
    you of all know me well diesel..so keep going..keep editing and adding…more info  and more thoughts…
    all those whats whys and and wheres….and in all this…where was diesel boy? 😉 he there …as you said but what was he doing and saying as wodan did his diffusing…
    [/quote]
    Oeshe… have to rewind tapes in head… will try to add much details as can remember….

    Ok poeps, this miiiight become a very long post, but is easier to point out the differences in how my boys react.

    When on walk and we encounter the bordeauxdog, rottie etc.
    We walk, very relaxed. Wodan slightly ahead of Diesel, sometimes 1 boy left, other on the right, depends on what they want to investigate. They see the dog in the distance. Normal curiousity is shown. Heads go up, Diesel will retreat until he is walking behind Wodan slightly on the left or right. (as dog comes closer) wodan’s tail will go up, chest gets blown up. Diesel usually grumbles with his mouth closed. Wodan’s ears go back, grumbles back with his head tillted into Diesel’s direction, but he won’t take his eyes of the other dog. (as dog comes closer in our direction) Wodan will move closer infront of me, diesel will follow beside or behind me as wodan’s tail will almost reach my leg and there is no more space for diesel between wodan and me. If the dog is very close than Wodan will walk beside me, diesel behind us. Noses in the air to get a good smell. Than 3 things can happen;
    1-If dog don’t seem to notice us, it gets a sniffsniff, as we walk by, Diesel will move behind wodan again, so now is infront of me as Wodan will walk in such an angle so that he is always between us and the dog. We walk on they’ll give it a quick stare as it going in the opposite direction.
    2-If dog is curious about them too, it gets a gooooood sniff. First by Wodan, Diesel somewhere behind wodan trying to get a good scent too. Wodan always right in the face, Diesel kind of cirkling around the dog, trying to come in from the side of the dog or behind. Diesel not so macho no more, tail goes down, trying to get a sneakysniff. Wodan will touch the dog, Diesel will not. If it a girl she can stay, if it a dog he gets a grumble. Hair go straight up, chest blown upupup, tail like a flag. Specially the bordeauxdog just keep standing there, doesn’t respond at all. Tongue out of mouth, just standing there, doing nothing. Wodan usually grumbles again but with teeth and barks a few fast times. Bordeaux just looking at wodan as if he’s thinking; ‘keep the noise down man, your hurting my ears’. This is when Diesel gets all worked up, barkbarkbark will run in half cirkles behind the dog, wodan still in his face. Wodan won’t make any other move than forward. If Diesel now makes a full cirkle move is like a herding move. The moment he passes wodan’s behind, he’ll pinch wodan in the arse in the process. It means gogogogogo when they do that with the big birds. Either Wodan will grumble bark to the dog or he’ll grumble soft at Diesel. Either way, if the dog retreats it ends there. But all the time the boys got this dirt look in their face, this ‘What the f.ck? Are you born plain stupid? Of did your mama bounce you on your head once too many when you were born?’
    Like the way they look at cows if we encounter them. Like ‘what is it? What can i do with it? Is it stupid? What ever it is, it not to bright, let’s move it from our path’. But difference with cows must be they smell different. Is like they don’t understand why a cow smells like a boy/girl dog. It’s not a dog, but it smells like a dog, it walks like a dog, sounds like a dog, but don’t speak like a dog. What is it? Is it a cat? Is it a …? What is this thing?
    3-if dog has a serious attitude right from the beginning (barking, grumbling, coming in running), comes very close to us, it’s instant fighting time. Wodan from the front, Diesel from the side or behind. They’ll tackle it, Wodan will go for the throat, dragging it along the ground, making -rip-it-apart-moves, Diesel for the belly, going bitebitebite. Very few times this happend is vèry much enough  :scared: . In matter of splitseconds Diesel easy to call off. Wodan not. I’ll need the other owner to drag his dog from underneath Wodan fast when i get a good grip on my boy to remove him. Wodan won’t hear, see or smell anything else than that boy. If it happend to be a girl, and they figure out it’s a girl the’ll just avoid it. Will stick to us, but won’t fight it, they just go  :whatever:  . If it not enitre boys or girls…. Wodan gets confused, sniffed everything, everywhere, belly to below the tail, back to the belly, back to the tail, he get’s this ‘what the hell are you? I’m going to fight you just to make sure’. The moment i see this i call for the owner to come get his dog or sh.t’s going to happen. It not alowed close to us. And i’ll have to call them back if they want to follow it. (neutered dogs, the only they try to hunt after. Others are let be when they run off) . Bulldogs… my boys treat those as if they would be reptiles. Something they don’t know.

    If it golden, lab, setter etc….. Boys always will be grumbled away like above, girls are kept. Getting a nice nice hello and a ‘hey babe, you smell niiiiiice sweetpea. Look how pretty i am, sure, ya in for it, right?  8)  -move’. Specially the 2 golden we sometimes see. 1 girl 1 boy. Wodan from the front, Diesel will disapear, turns up behind the Goldenboy. Goldenboy always drops on the ground on his back. Gets a good sniff from Wodan, Diesel focusses on the girl. Wodan will  let the boy be and say hello to the girl, Diesel keeps an eye on the boy. Golden owner says this how it always goes. His boy always like this with every dog. Other dogs like these breeds are investigated, sniffed thorroughtly and that’s it. Either we grumble you off, or your a girl and let’s play.

    But the 2 saarloos boys….
    We walk, we spot them. My boys freez, both the saarloos freez. Just for seconds. They come closer our way. We go closer their way. Wodan slighty infront of me, Diesel beside me or slightly behind me. Amoon (the eldest boy) and his little bro walking close to thier owner exactly like my boys to me. Amoon and Wodan; Tails go up, chests get blown up, walking on high legs, towards eachother. Diesel and Amoon’s little brother more straight tails back like a stick, heads streched to the front, more like as if they see a prey in eachother. Amoon will stop, Wodan walks up to him, sniffs the top of Amoon’s head. Like as if he trying to sniff the base of the ears at the back of Amoon’s ears. Amoon will sniff Wodan’s mouth, Wodan will sniff Amoon’s mouth and digs his nose under Amoon’s belly. Amoon doing the same. Diesel and Amoon’s little bro just stand there watching eachothr, sometimes sniff eachother from the air, sometimes come closer to eachother trying to check eachother out. But always very hessitating, very carefull. Than it’s like ‘oh, it’s you, yeah, fine, where have you been today?, i can smell it, yeah great, ok, now you go that way, i go this way’. Amoon will stay between his owner and us, Wodan will stay between me and them. They’ll just stare at eachother. Amoon’s master and little brother walk on and after seconds Amoon will follow. I walk on with Diesel, and after seconds wodan will follow.

    The Tjech…..
    He alone. Everything from the beginning went as above. Although the Tjech boy did remain where he was longer. Only when Wodan came very closer did he come forward too.  When the Tjech was actually in Wodan’s face, very close…. The same as with Amoon, sniff back of his ears, Tjech sniffing back of Wodan’s ears, sniff the sausage, but than this boy licked the side of Wodan’s mouth. Just a few- 2-3- very quick small licks with the tip of his tongue. And Wodan gave him a quick lick on the side of his face. And then… of we went ==>  ??? 

    The biggest differences between saarloos/tjech towards other dog encounters are;
    no sniffing buttholes,
    no grumbling,
    no direct walking in without standing still for a few seconds,
    smelling the ears don’t happen with other dogs,
    and licking another boydog…. that never ever happend befor. Not even with their own kind, but we not encounter their own kind to much  :-\ .
    So i was wondering if they could just understand eachother better, almost as if they could tell that Tjech had nothing bad in mind, while they seem to get confused when they see for instance the bordeaux or rotties.

    With my boys’ own kind, the belgian breeds or sheps….. the boys they don’t like much but are being checked out, the girls are instantly to die for. With shep girls, specialy groengirls or Terveureners it’s instant luuuuurve. Puppies they seem to no oppinion about. They are just sniffed intensly, and let be but are allowed to do everything, even hanging in their coats. Unless they are about 5 months or older. The girlpups are still aload to do everything, the boy pups get told off for hanging in their coats.

    Another thing i find strange. Dogs generally request play by hanging their butt in the air and move their shoulders to the floor, right? Wodan only did this when he was little. Diesel sometimes still does it rarely, but not that often no more, so kind of that making that move is fading with him too. They ask play by stuffing their head under my chin, pushing me with their feet, offer me toys… Like that. Yet i see specially a lot of goldenretrievers do this, little doggies like Jack Russels… Is this also something that is more in some breeds than others? Or not?
       

    Details enough Bev?

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