Re: German Shepherd diet hijack

[**Woofums**]

I’ve just waded through all of that, hoping for something interesting, to change my mind about how I feed my Dogs (didn’t find it)
I’ve fed all my Dogs RAW …that’s 31 years of ownership of the breed.
My Grandfather fed his a combination of raw & table scraps (as was the custom in the 50’s & 60’s) all his Dogs lived to a ripe old age.
This isn’t hearsay, this is fact…I was there, I saw it, I do it.
My vet supports the way I feed..my Dogs look well, are active & happy.
It isn’t a fad…I don’t follow rules or methods laid down by other…I use Common Sense .

[Anonymous]

[quote author=PhiltheBear link=topic=7101.msg238649#msg238649 date=1220196009]
In regard to BARF and similar diets – try these sites, which contain scientific evidence rather than hearsay:

http://csuvets.colostate.edu/pain/Articlespdf/Problems%20with%20Raw%20Meat.pdf  You will note, particularly, that the sources quoted are authoritative and appear in papers that have been independently reviewed (just to remove any doubts about the idea that these studies may have been funded by the pet food industry – which is the normal ‘conspiracy theory’ reaction from those who wish to ignore factual evidence).

Fancy a bit of salmonella yourself? “Human Health Implications of Salmonella-Contaminated Natural Pet Treats and Raw Pet Food”, Rita Finley, Richard Reid-Smith and J. Scott Weese, 2006, Infectious Diseases Society of America

A snippet from their results: Human salmonellosis occurs mainly as a result of handling or consuming contaminated food products, with a small percentage of cases being related to other, less well-defined exposures, such as contact with companion animals and natural pet treats. The increasing popularity of raw food diets for companion animals is another potential pet-associated source of Salmonella organisms. Pets that consume contaminated pet treats and raw food diets can be colonized with Salmonella organisms without exhibiting clinical signs, making them a possible hidden source of contamination in the household. Pet owners can reduce their risk of acquiring Salmonella organisms by not feeding natural pet treats and raw food diets to their pets, whereas individuals who investigate cases of salmonellosis or interpret surveillance data should be aware of these possible sources of Salmonella organisms.

In America the largest on-going source of post-qualification veterinary courses is VIN. One of the things VIN does is run a website for pet owners who may have questions that they want answered by experts. Here’s a quote from Wendy Brooks, their education director: “There is an important exception to the “Salmonella is rare in adult dogs” rule and that is the case of dogs fed a raw food diet.   It has, unfortunately, become popular to feed raw foods to pets with the idea that a raw food diet more closely approximates the natural diet that the feline or canine body evolved to consume, and thus such a diet should be healthier than commercially prepared foods. In fact, the cooking of food is central to removing parasites, bacteria, and bacterial toxins from food. A recent study evaluating raw food diets found that 80% of food samples contained Salmonella bacteria and that 30% of the dogs in the study were shedding Salmonella bacteria in their stool. Adult dogs are often asymptomatic but any infected animal or person will shed the organism for at least 6 weeks thus acting as a source of exposure to other animals or people. Salmonella organisms are very difficult to remove from the environment and easily survive 3 months in soil.  Again, dogs used for therapy around the elderly or children should be cultured for the presence of Salmonella.

There are two syndromes associated with Salmonella: diarrhea and sepsis. Salmonella bacteria, once consumed, attach to the intestine and secrete toxins. The toxins produce diarrhea that can be severe and even life-threatening in the young.  If this were not bad enough, some Salmonella can produce an even more serious “part two.”  These bacteria are capable of invading the rest of the body through the damaged intestine.”

Or how about Dr. Bob Judd, DVM (DVM is the US Vet qualification) “Campylobacter is a bacterial pathogen that causes fever, diarrhea, and abdominal pain.  As this bacterium is common in birds, most raw poultry has this organism on it and infection usually develops from eating undercooked chicken.”

In June 2006 the following results were found in a study of commercially available raw pet food diets: “Feeding raw meat diets to high performance dogs such as greyhounds and sled dogs has been a common practice for some time.  Recently, feeding raw meat diets has become popular with owners of pet dogs.  The proponents of these diets believe the dogs feel better, have more energy and less disease.  However, there is no scientific evidence whatsoever to support these claims.  The concern about these diets is the bacterial contamination in these foods.  Although the people who sell the raw food diets indicate bacterial contamination is not important in most dogs, it is possible it could cause a problem in pets as well as their human owners.

To determine the actual contamination of these raw meat diets, the staff at Colorado State University in conjunction with the USDA evaluated 21 commercially available raw meat diets from three different retail stores.  All diets were stored frozen until evaluated.  The study revealed 53% of the diets contained e. coli, which can cause severe intestinal problems in dogs and humans.  This is the same bacteria that usually cause illness in humans who eat undercooked hamburgers.  Salmonella, another bacteria that causes intestinal disease, was also found in 5.9% of the samples.”

Want to investigate yourself?

Here’s some websites that carry information you may not want to read:

http://www.petdiets.com/  – have a look at ‘Myths’, specifically Myth No 8

http://www.thepetcenter.com/xra/bonecomp.html – read ALL the article. Note specifically that it says bone content is 2/3 is a mineral compound called hydroxyapatite that is composed of nothing more than Calcium, Phosphorus, Oxygen and Hydrogen.  There are no Vitamins, Fatty Acids, enzymes, proteins or carbohydrates in it. Of the other 1/3rd nearly 95 % is a substance called collagen. Collagen is a fibrous protein.  It is poorly digested by the dog and cat. But don’t stop there – have a look at the splintered bones shown. Would you be happy with your dog eating those? But bones are a major part of BARF and similar diets.

http://www.balanceit.com/ – run by specialist qualified vets who have also gained further specific qualifications in nutrition – yet all their recipes are using cooked food.

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/barf-myth.html – explodes all the myths proposed by BARF exponents

Proponents of the BARF (and closely allied diets) are in the same sort of position as people who propose homoeopathy as a serious medical remedy. All the scientific evidence says they are wrong. They don’t have a shred of verifiable evidence to prove that they are right. Just because you’ve been lucky so far doesn’t mean you will continue to be lucky.

I’ve seen countless postings on the web saying things along the lines of “I’ve always fed my dogs X diet and they are much healthier than other dogs”. Really? By what criteria?

It has been pointed out that Billingshurst (‘inventor’ of BARF) is a vet. It’s seldom pointed out that he’s a vet with a vested interest (e.g. he sells books). It’s also seldom pointed out that some of the things he claims are just plain wrong. For example, he claims that you shouldn’t include grain carbohydrate in a dog’s food because the dog’s digestive system hasn’t evolved to cope with it. That’s not true – at all. It IS true that too much grain can cause IBS type problems in dogs but it’s a matter of quantity and type. Dogs will normally tolerate grain carbohydrate in their diet – but some don’t.

I’m continually amazed at the ignorance displayed by some dog owners about feeding. Recently I came across a posting on a “dog lovers” website where someone posted a weekly diet sheet that included garlic as a regular ingredient. What made it so bad was that other dog owners were joining in and saying how great it was. Perhaps they’d like to have included grapes and chocolate too.

I’m sure that none of the foregoing will make the slightest difference to people who will blindly follow these diets irrespective of the evidence. But I’ll repeat what I’ve said before – if these alternative diets are so much better then show me independent evidence that’s the case. Don’t rely on hearsay.
[/quote]

Why do you assume that everyone else is just stupid & that we rely on hearsay? Has it occured to you that some of the people on here were probably raising dogs on a natural diet when you were still in short trousers?

If you could put your know-it-all & condescending attitude to one side for a moment you might actually understand what people are saying to you – rather than what you THINK they are saying.

Do you not think that those of us who chose to feed a natural diet might have actually taken our advice from long standing breeders who have studied canine nutrition to a much greater degree than most Vet’s in general practice?

And you have the nerve to call other people ignorant? You haven’t exactly shown an open mind yourself so far. You are starting to annoy me quite frankly & i am not getting into a debate on the evils of raw feeding with someone who shows such ignorance toward something they clearly are not very well versed on. Your ignorance toward the way UK vets operate & are subsidised by commercial pet food companies also shows what little understanding you have of why so many long established breeders in the UK have raised generations of dogs on a natural diet.

I’m sure you must really enjoy your tins of Waggi-Slop, but if it’s all the same you can keep it ‘ya hear?  

So there! LOL

[SuzAndTheDiva]

Im just astounded, really I dont know what to say to someone so completely and utterly close minded. Seriously never seen anything like it before  ???

Dogs lived perfectly well before pet food companies started pushing dog food……….do you have any scientific evidence to prove that those dogs were any less healthy, or god forbid HEALTHIER than those commercial food?

Ever read Dogs Diet and Disease – now THATS an eye opener, got any scientific studies to discount her theories on diet being a huge part of the increase in diseases such as cushings and diabetes?

You keep harping on about salmonella. What about the health issues associated with feeding commercial food?  I cannot feed commercial food to my dog, not unless I also add a diet of steroids and antibiotics to keep her healthy – so now tell me why is that – if all the studies so say prove that raw feeding is so bad……seriously Id be interested in an answer. IF raw really is so bad, tell me why my dog is living a healthy life eating that – yet a poor one eating commercial food? 

If you can give me some answers on that one I will be willing to hold a discussion with you.

And I also say, dont believe everything vets studies show, they have their uses and incredible talents in SOME areas, but i say again they dont know everything. As individuals we all have are own areas of expertise when working in the dog world, and i still say experiences count for a lot – sometimes more than scientific studies.

[Anonymous]

Anyone would think there was a global epidemic of Salmonella being caused by people who don’t buy commercial pet foods. To be honest from what i have read so far i don’t think it’s US who is listening to hearsay. I mean for goodness sake – when was the last time any of us actually heard of someone catching Salmonella directly as a result of raw feeding? More people contract Salmonella from meat in the human food chain than they do by preparing food for thier dogs. It doesn’t take a genius to work out how to prevent cross contamination – something which a lot of restaurants serving food to the public don’t seem to have worked out.

[Anonymous]

PhiltheBear when you were talking about the GSD I could see a lot of sense . :agree: now you have totally changed the topic if by the way you want to continue you will find this under another heading soon
I fear you have totally lost the plot, if you believe all that you have posted so be it but for all my long life and my fathers before me we have fed dogs on real food we have both worked and shown and lived in multi dog houses lots of the members of this board also know fresh is best so all I can say to you is Don’t try teaching your mother to suck eggs as the saying goes.
Right back to the topic or I will have to split this
Val

[Anonymous]

I find it fascinating that the replies are mainly along the lines of “what did dogs use to do?”. The simple answer – they died young. And, somewhere, if I could be bothered to find it, a controlled study was done which showed that feeding cooked, preprepared food allowed captive wolves to live longer.

Now, you may not like it. You may think “I’ve done this for years, so it’s all right”. Unfortunately, the facts show otherwise. It may have been all right for you. That may not be true tomorrow.

As for the people who think I’m close-minded. The opposite is true. The difference is that I’ve heavily researched this – not by relying on people who say I’ve fed this, or I’ve fed that – but by looking at hard, verifiable evidence.

You may not believe me but I do think that there is a place for some natural foods. Equally, I’ve found (and some of the replies here illustrate) that there are an awful lot of people who think what they are doing is correct but who turn a blind eye to those things they don’t wish to see. Because I’ve tried to keep this on an independent level I haven’t re-posted things I’ve found on forums where owners have told of their devastation at having their dogs die after changing to a raw food diet – and there are quite a few out there.

However, I know that the die-hards will live in their own world and not look at real evidence so there’s no point in continuing this discussion.

:surrender:

[Sweetypye]

ALL vets have vested interests, they ALL have something to sell, products, books, services etc oh yes I nearly forgot, commercial dog food too;).

So that is one argument shot down in flames.

Garlic

If garlic was the toxic substance you believe it to be (amongst many others who believe everything they read on the net or old wives tales) perhaps you can explain why qualified herbalists etc manufacture garlic supplements specifically for dogs,  Are you suggesting that individuals such as Mary Boughton MBE and Hilary Self  who are qualified professionals in this field are less informed, educated than you?  Same goes for Denes.  All three sell licensed veterinary products, they are not amateurs or self regulating!

If you are please tell us exactly WHAT qualifications you have in this area?

http://secure.dorwest.com/searchprods.asp
http://www.hiltonherbs.co.uk/canine/canine_generalhealth.cfm?cfid=31042221&cftoken=85651118
http://www.denes.co.uk/health/licensed_herbal_medicines.php

Everyone was an opinion, everyone has a different perspective on feeding based on knowledge and personal experience; no one has the monopoly on truth in anything, least of all diet, dogs or breeds.

However as you appear to much more knowledgable than the whole of the forum put together not to mention those respected individuals who have degrees in this s :ok:ubject there is really no need for you to be here is there?
:ok:

It would be futile to try and alter our closed minds and our intellectually challenged outlook!  :agree:

[kizkiznobite]

:what:  they died young….
rubbish….total rubbish….the only dog i have had that died young was due to an intercranial bleed after injury….we have recently lost the oldest recorded clumber….16 1/2 seen vet once in the 14 years we had her for a bite wound…falkor is 10…diagnosed with cancer…was given 6 months 2 years ago…rescued at 18 months lost parts of his gut and colon…his diet is what is keeping him alive…my dogs dont get ill from raw feeding…nether did my parents dogs or my grandparents dogs…prob in the region of over 400 dogs in 3 human generations…all fed ‘natural’ my sisters last collie…lived until 21…my other sisters newfie..not a long living breed…lived until 14…my grandfathers last rough collie…lived until 15…the list is endless… dogs are dying younger now then ever…

my methods are simple…
feed natural
dont vac after puppyhood
dont flea and worm with chemicals
don’t give anti bi’s unless really really required
don’t give steroids
keep the immune boosted

ergo …my dogs have long and happy lives…

works for me and my family now …worked for the last 100’s of years for my family then…

[**Woofums**]

[quote author=PhiltheBear link=topic=12345.msg238749#msg238749 date=1220261356]
I find it fascinating that the replies are mainly along the lines of “what did dogs use to do?”. The simple answer – they died young. And, somewhere, if I could be bothered to find it, a controlled study was done which showed that feeding cooked, preprepared food allowed captive wolves to live longer.

Now, you may not like it. You may think “I’ve done this for years, so it’s all right”. Unfortunately, the facts show otherwise. It may have been all right for you. That may not be true tomorrow.

As for the people who think I’m close-minded. The opposite is true. The difference is that I’ve heavily researched this – not by relying on people who say I’ve fed this, or I’ve fed that – but by looking at hard, verifiable evidence.
You may not believe me but I do think that there is a place for some natural foods. Equally, I’ve found (and some of the replies here illustrate) that there are an awful lot of people who think what they are doing is correct but who turn a blind eye to those things they don’t wish to see. Because I’ve tried to keep this on an independent level I haven’t re-posted things I’ve found on forums where owners have told of their devastation at having their dogs die after changing to a raw food diet – and there are quite a few out there.

However, I know that the die-hards will live in their own world and not look at real evidence so there’s no point in continuing this discussion.

:surrender:

[/quote]

So you haven’t researched it at all have you ??  You are simply quoting the results of reasearch carried out by others (hearsay)
Controlled research is carried out on perfect specimens…of the same type, breed & age. Exercise & food is carefully monitored.
In the real world (where most of us live) there are other factors to take into account.

If you’re so into statistics what do you you make of the odds that most posters here would agree with you ?
Fact…most here are disagreeing & relating their experiences to back up their beliefs. 

[kizkiznobite]

falkor….’staying alive’  :agree:

[img width=468 height=382]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t15/bev_052/th_north08100.jpg[/img]

[Anonymous]

Dogs die young what rubbish all the serious research tells a very different story even the KC admit dogs are now dieing younger than they ever did, not mine sunshine doG willing they will all die of old age, most of my dogs in the past have lived well into their teens as old as 17yrs.
Val

[Kerry_and_Beau]

please tell me where does medicine come from? where do they seek cures to cancer?? research that then tell me holistic/homeopathy therapies are rediculous!

oh and if beau had carried on eating your wonderful prepared diets he would be dead now! and i will be sure to tell my vet that his diet is all wrong and she should know better!

Proponents of the BARF (and closely allied diets) are in the same sort of position as people who propose homoeopathy as a serious medical remedy. All the scientific evidence says they are wrong. They don’t have a shred of verifiable evidence to prove that they are right. Just because you’ve been lucky so far doesn’t mean you will continue to be lucky.

[Anonymous]

[quote author=PhiltheBear link=topic=12345.msg238749#msg238749 date=1220261356]
I find it fascinating that the replies are mainly along the lines of “what did dogs use to do?”. The simple answer – they died young. And, somewhere, if I could be bothered to find it, a controlled study was done which showed that feeding cooked, preprepared food allowed captive wolves to live longer.

Now, you may not like it. You may think “I’ve done this for years, so it’s all right”. Unfortunately, the facts show otherwise. It may have been all right for you. That may not be true tomorrow.

As for the people who think I’m close-minded. The opposite is true. The difference is that I’ve heavily researched this – not by relying on people who say I’ve fed this, or I’ve fed that – but by looking at hard, verifiable evidence.

You may not believe me but I do think that there is a place for some natural foods. Equally, I’ve found (and some of the replies here illustrate) that there are an awful lot of people who think what they are doing is correct but who turn a blind eye to those things they don’t wish to see. Because I’ve tried to keep this on an independent level I haven’t re-posted things I’ve found on forums where owners have told of their devastation at having their dogs die after changing to a raw food diet – and there are quite a few out there.

However, I know that the die-hards will live in their own world and not look at real evidence so there’s no point in continuing this discussion.

:surrender:

[/quote]

So far everything you have posted to bolster your argument against natural feeding has all been old hat – we’ve heard it all before.

I think i can quite confidently say that none of the people who have so far responded are going to lecture you about why using commercial pet foods is so wrong, (and i’m sure they can quote as many statistics as you) so perhaps you could return the sentiment by not lecturing us like we are stupid school children who know nothing & just accept that we do not have to agree with your views on this subject anymore than you have to agree with ours.

It has been pointed out more than once that things are done VERY differently here in the UK & some of the most long established breeders have used a natural diet for generations & really do have a good deal more knowledge on the nutrition of thier chosen breeds than many Vet’s in general practice.

[kizkiznobite]

ahhh the U.S. of A. didnt realise  🙂

errrmmm yeah..right…errrmm…recalled commercial foods…erm…my friends and their friends and their friends…..et al…over the pond ….have been changing over by the dozen…the light shineth in this old brain…vested interest maybe?

[Izzie]

Watching this thread, am going to put my views and experiences in now.

First off, my youngest was diagnosed with mitral valve dysplacia, was graded at 3 (1 being low, 6 being heart failure) at the age 14 months, had all the tests done and was told to keep an eye and will retest everytime she went to the vets. at that time she was on dried complete food and was a nightmare dog.

a couple months later I changed her and Trix over to natural and raw food. Since then she has become calmer, she had her yearly check up at the vets and they could barely hear her murmour it has gone from a grade 3 to a grade 1, which is fantastic!

Oh and the vets studying food, please dont give that bull****t, I have a close friend at the RVC and she hasnt studied nutrition at all and she is in her Second year!

[Author]

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