Re: German Shepherd diet hijack

[Anonymous]

[quote author=Val link=topic=12345.msg238763#msg238763 date=1220266158]
Dogs die young what rubbish all the serious research tells a very different story even the KC admit dogs are now dieing younger than they ever did, not mine sunshine doG willing they will all die of old age, most of my dogs in the past have lived well into their teens as old as 17yrs.
Val
[/quote]

I’m confused – where did you get the information from that the KC admit dogs are dying younger? What I said was that dogs in the wild die younger than pet dogs. Wolves in the wild have a lifespan of approx 10 years – in captivity it can be 20.

quote :

So you haven’t researched it at all have you ??  You are simply quoting the results of reasearch carried out by others (hearsay)
Controlled research is carried out on perfect specimens…of the same type, breed & age. Exercise & food is carefully monitored.
In the real world (where most of us live) there are other factors to take into account.

If you’re so into statistics what do you you make of the odds that most posters here would agree with you ?
Fact…most here are disagreeing & relating their experiences to back up their beliefs.

:nono: You obviously haven’t ever done any research. The very first thing in proper research is to investigate what other research has been carried out. The results of that aren’t, as you mistakenly think, hearsay. Hearsay is when you say something that isn’t verifiable.

Where do you get the idea from that “Controlled research is carried out on perfect specimens”? Do show me a verifiable source. It’s simply not true.

People here are relating their personal experiences – but I can pull together similar ‘personal experiences’ from people who claim that feeding raw foods killed their pets. Personal experience is exactly that – it isn’t quantifiable evidence.

Here’s a thought. Show me ONE single University study which indicates that feeding raw foods to dogs is preferable to feeding processed food. Or, as that’s too hard, what about a single published, peer-reviewed paper that says that raw food is better for your dog, or prolongs its life.

Or provide statistics which show that more dogs die as a direct result from eating processed/cooked foods than do proportionately from eating raw foods.

I’ve spent the best part of 6 months looking for that sort of evidence – not hearsay, not individuals claiming they know best, not conspiracy theorists who think that vets only recommend diets to line their own pockets – and I can tell you there isn’t any. I’ll repeat that. There is NO published evidence at all that indicates that raw food diets are better for your dog (or cat, come to that). There’s a whole load of published opinion – but no evidence to back up that opinion.

And it doesn’t matter that you believe to the contrary – at one time people believed the earth was flat. Your beliefs aren’t worth anything. Produce sound, verifiable facts.

quote :

Garlic

If garlic was the toxic substance you believe it to be (amongst many others who believe everything they read on the net or old wives tales) perhaps you can explain why qualified herbalists etc manufacture garlic supplements specifically for dogs,  Are you suggesting that individuals such as Mary Boughton MBE and Hilary Self  who are qualified professionals in this field are less informed, educated than you?

Mary Boughton and Hilary Self. As far as I can see neither of these ladies are qualified in animal medicine. Mary Boughton seems to have no qualifications at all. True she is a director of a herbal marketing firm and she does sit on the board of an organisation which promotes the efforts of companies that sell medicinal products – but what about that actually qualifies her? Hlilary Self has a BSc and is a member of the National Institute of Herbal Medicine.

As a matter of fact (I know you don’t like facts, but never mind) I have a PhD. I also took the Herbal Medicine qualification, firstly at the College of Phytotherapy and then at The University of East London (which took over the BSc course). Getting a BSc didn’t use to be necessary for becoming MNIHM – it is now.

As a further matter of FACT recognised herbal medicine qualifications are for dealing with people – not animals. Just to help you along further no herbal medicine course – outside of approved veterinary colleges – qualifies you to deal with animals – indeed anyone who prescribes any such medicine is breaking the law unless they hold a veterinary qualification. So, do I think I’m just as qualified to speak on the subject as either of these two? Well, yes, as I hold higher qualifications than either.

If you check carefully you’ll see that only certain herbal products are licensed for veterinary use. Furthermore, those products can only be prescribed by vets. Of course, you can give them yourself without veterinary intervention – but you can do anything to your own dog up to the point that you are prosecuted for it. And pleading ignorance of the effects, or likely effects, is no defence.

So, garlic. Like onion, garlic contains thiosulphate – which is poisonous to dogs. It destroys red blood cells, leading to anaemia. It can also cause intestinal problems. You may well get away with small amounts as it doesn’t accumulate but passes through the system. However, a large amount will kill your dog. It’s that simple. If you want to see it in action put powdered garlic on your dog’s food. There are old wives tales that garlic is a flea repellent because a dog would sweat it out through the skin. It isn’t. It doesn’t work and it may kill your dog.

Dorwest (that’s Mary Boughton’s company) sell a variety of garlic products. No strength is shown on any of these. One such product is Fenugreek and Garlic where a whole load of stuff is quoted about what the combination will do. Unfortunately, all the stuff quoted comes from application to humans, none of it to animals (other than speculation). It is likely that the doses are so low that they wouldn’t have any serious bad effects on the animal – but it’s more than likely that they wouldn’t be beneficial either.

If you want to quote experts – please do. But make them experts in the field that you want them to deal with and not just people who sell products.

[Sweetypye]

Do you know what this is?

0
BA
MSc
PhD

Answer: 3 degrees below zero

ANYTHING and EVERYTHING in excess is toxic, including hot air.

We do not need you to convince us of the error of our ways, why not conduct your eulogising and proselytising elsewhere where your education, qualifications and erudition will be appreciated.

Why waste your time with people like us, who live in the dark ages, have no qualifiications, degrees, professional status etc.

We are not on a par with you, you should not be associating with us plebs!

I have found, that forums are like swimming pools, all the shouting comes from the shallow end!  :ok:

Empty vessels make most noise etc etc etc.

All the people to whom I have referred have demonstrated competency in their field, you have not.

It is a difficult one, but I think I will put my faith in those who deserve it.

AS I said before you do not have the monopoly on facts, expertise or anything other than an overwhelming desire to prove your worth; which quite frankly make you appear desperate for kudos and validation.

[Anonymous]

“What a pompous twat” would have sufficed SP.  😉 ;D

[Anonymous]

[quote author=Sweetypye link=topic=12345.msg238802#msg238802 date=1220289979]
Do you know what this is?

0
BA
MSc
PhD

Answer: 3 degrees below zero

ANYTHING and EVERYTHING in excess is toxic, including hot air.

We do not need you to convince us of the error of our ways, why not conduct your eulogising and proselytising elsewhere where your education, qualifications and erudition will be appreciated.

Why waste your time with people like us, who live in the dark ages, have no qualifiications, degrees, professional status etc.

We are not on a par with you, you should not be associating with us plebs!

I have found, that forums are like swimming pools, all the shouting comes from the shallow end!  :ok:

Empty vessels make most noise etc etc etc.

All the people to whom I have referred have demonstrated competency in their field, you have not.

It is a difficult one, but I think I will put my faith in those who deserve it.

AS I said before you do not have the monopoly on facts, expertise or anything other than an overwhelming desire to prove your worth; which quite frankly make you appear desperate for kudos and validation.
[/quote]
So, you have no sound argument but just think that shouting makes you right?

Were you a school bully too?

Are you just upset that you’ve put up lots of hot air arguments that can be proven wrong?

The only empty vessel here is you. You are the one who held up experts – that aren’t expert at all. What competency have any of them demonstrated? You are the one who insisted that garlic was OK for dogs – when it’s poisonous. :nono:

I’m sure a lot of people here will trust your every word. If you have anything reliable or valuable to say – please do so. But your last post shows your true worth – empty.

[Anonymous]

[quote author=Mark. link=topic=12345.msg238806#msg238806 date=1220291411]
“What a pompous twat” would have sufficed SP.  😉 ;D
[/quote]

Much better to be called pompous than stupid.

[kizkiznobite]

‘Garlic (Allium sativum) has been used for thousands of years for medicinal purposes. Sanskrit records show its medicinal use about 5,000 years ago, and it has been used for at least 3,000 years in Chinese medicine. The Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans were known to have harnessed the healing properties of garlic as well. According to the Whole Dog Journal, small amounts of garlic not only act as a natural flea repellant, but garlic can be used for its wonderful antifungal and antibacterial properties. It also promotes the production of white blood cells thereby acting as an immune booster for dogs with low or compromised immunity and may benefit dogs with diabetes by helping reduce blood-sugar levels.

What makes garlic so great for dog health problems? Allicin appears to be the active component in the root bulb (cloves) of the garlic plant which trigger its healing properties. Allicin is formed when alliin, a sulfur-containing amino acid, comes into contact with the enzyme alliinase when raw garlic is chopped, crushed, or chewed. Heating garlic will lessen the medicinal capabilities, but naturally dehydrating it won’t. That is to say the garlic used in a nutritional supplement, or garlic found in one of our pet food mixes is simply raw garlic that has been crushed and dehydrated.

Despite its healing qualities, Garlic contains a compound named thiosulphate. In extremely high levels thiosulphate can be a dangerous toxin that cause hemolytic anemia in dogs. But we’re not talking about garlic dog treats, supplemental garlic, or healthy table scraps that may have included fresh garlic in the recipe. We’re talking about situations where your pet sniffs out several bulbs of garlic you were about to use for a giant batch of homemade spaghetti sauce for the whole neighborhood and winds up eating 50 cloves in one sitting. We repeat . . . it would take up to 50 cloves for garlic to be harmful to your dog! 50 cloves of garlic wouldn’t be a good idea for anyone, let alone your dog. In the event that your dog did get into a basket of garlic cloves, the symptoms of hemolytic anemia can develop within a few hours or a few days. Signs include vomiting, diarrhea, weakness, depression, and loss of appetite. If you see these symptoms in your pet and you’re missing a lot of cloves of garlic, call your vet.
The bottom line there is that dogs and cats can get into many things around the house that are toxic if consumed in large quantities. But, when used in moderation, garlic can be a healthy supplement. According to Charlie Fox, the co-author of The Garlic Cure (McCleery & Sons, 2002), garlic can be used to stimulate and support immune function, trigger gastric juices for better digestion, encourage the growth of friendly bacteria, and prevent infections. He’s seen garlic reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer as well as improve blood sugar regulation and promote detoxification. ‘

all in proportion…all in sensible amount…all it takes is a little education  :ok:

[Anonymous]

[quote author=PhiltheBear link=topic=12345.msg238809#msg238809 date=1220292131]
[quote author=Mark. link=topic=12345.msg238806#msg238806 date=1220291411]
“What a pompous twat” would have sufficed SP.  😉 ;D
[/quote]

Much better to be called pompous than stupid.
[/quote]

Says the man who didn’t even know that Vet’s don’t study diet. ROFLOL

[Anonymous]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12345.msg238810#msg238810 date=1220292469]
‘Garlic (Allium sativum) has been used for thousands of years for medicinal purposes. Sanskrit records show its medicinal use about 5,000 years ago, and it has been used for at least 3,000 years in Chinese medicine. The Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans were known to have harnessed the healing properties of garlic as well. According to the Whole Dog Journal, small amounts of garlic not only act as a natural flea repellant, but garlic can be used for its wonderful antifungal and antibacterial properties. It also promotes the production of white blood cells thereby acting as an immune booster for dogs with low or compromised immunity and may benefit dogs with diabetes by helping reduce blood-sugar levels.

What makes garlic so great for dog health problems? Allicin appears to be the active component in the root bulb (cloves) of the garlic plant which trigger its healing properties. Allicin is formed when alliin, a sulfur-containing amino acid, comes into contact with the enzyme alliinase when raw garlic is chopped, crushed, or chewed. Heating garlic will lessen the medicinal capabilities, but naturally dehydrating it won’t. That is to say the garlic used in a nutritional supplement, or garlic found in one of our pet food mixes is simply raw garlic that has been crushed and dehydrated.

Despite its healing qualities, Garlic contains a compound named thiosulphate. In extremely high levels thiosulphate can be a dangerous toxin that cause hemolytic anemia in dogs. But we’re not talking about garlic dog treats, supplemental garlic, or healthy table scraps that may have included fresh garlic in the recipe. We’re talking about situations where your pet sniffs out several bulbs of garlic you were about to use for a giant batch of homemade spaghetti sauce for the whole neighborhood and winds up eating 50 cloves in one sitting. We repeat . . . it would take up to 50 cloves for garlic to be harmful to your dog! 50 cloves of garlic wouldn’t be a good idea for anyone, let alone your dog. In the event that your dog did get into a basket of garlic cloves, the symptoms of hemolytic anemia can develop within a few hours or a few days. Signs include vomiting, diarrhea, weakness, depression, and loss of appetite. If you see these symptoms in your pet and you’re missing a lot of cloves of garlic, call your vet.
The bottom line there is that dogs and cats can get into many things around the house that are toxic if consumed in large quantities. But, when used in moderation, garlic can be a healthy supplement. According to Charlie Fox, the co-author of The Garlic Cure (McCleery & Sons, 2002), garlic can be used to stimulate and support immune function, trigger gastric juices for better digestion, encourage the growth of friendly bacteria, and prevent infections. He’s seen garlic reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer as well as improve blood sugar regulation and promote detoxification. ‘

all in proportion…all in sensible amount…all it takes is a little education  :ok:

[/quote]

The vast majority of the stuff you have there is applicable to humans – not dogs. And, someone who quotes garlic as ‘reducing the risk of cancer’ is about as believable as George Bush saying he’s invading Iraq to crush Al Qaeda. It’s fatuous and an incredibly stupid claim to make.

But, you say that it takes 50 cloves of garlic to cause a problem. I think you may find that it’s quite a lot less. You also say allicin is beneficial. Hmm – “Allicin and ajoene, pharmacologically active agents in garlic,are potent cardiac and smooth muscle relaxants, vasodilators,and hypotensive agents.Thus, hypotensive and antithrombotic effects can exacerbate the physiologic effects of anemia and impaired oxygen transportation. Garlic preparations that have not been aged cause direct damage to the gastric and ileal mucosa, resulting in pain and diarrhea.” That comes from Toxicology Brief a  paper on “Allium species poisoning in dogs and cats” (allium = onions, garlic, leek, chives) from the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. But by all means believe someone who reckons garlic can lessen the risk of cancer. :what:

And the bit at the top you quoted is in error. Garlic doesn’t ‘promote white blood cells’ it kills red blood cells. It may look like the proportion has changed but it’s not a healthy change.

[Anonymous]

[quote author=Mark. link=topic=12345.msg238816#msg238816 date=1220294276]

Says the man who didn’t even know that Vet’s don’t study diet. ROFLOL
[/quote]

Instead of proving your stupidity in an open forum I invite you to telephone any University Veterinary college and ask them how much of their undergraduate studies involve study of nutrition. Your friend SweetPea was going to investigate it – but somehow failed to come back with the answers – probably because she found her claim of ‘one lecture by a pet food manufacturer’ was as empty as the rest of her arguments.

But she’s such an expert that elsewhere on this forum she’s claiming that dogs don’t need carbohydrates – exposing a complete and total ignorance of physiology. :whatever:

[kizkiznobite]

But, you say that it takes 50 cloves of garlic to cause a problem…….

no…the research says…….me…i just go with the results of over a 100 years of documented knowledge… 🙂

and of course more recently….my falkor..my luck dragon…18 months after death was due to happen and still alive…no meds except high high dose selenium, garlic, broccoli (oppsssss another ‘toxic’ ‘food’  😉 ) and a raw diet…

on a side note…you have not at all said what dogs you have…what dogs you have had…what age they lived to..what you feed…what health systems you follow..nor answered q’s put to you…nor added anything to any other thread….

do you have an ulterior motive?….don’t have to answer…just an observation and i naturally curious  🙂

PS…dogs do not ‘need’ carbs  😉 why would they….even pedigree foods agree with that one  ;D

[TobyTeaCosy and Angela]

this empty vessel couldnt remain quiet!

[img width=292 height=468]http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/4/3/22/f_258Trollsprm_2ccc2b2.jpg[/img]

[kizkiznobite]

by the way…the addy is ‘sweetypye’ not sweetpea…at least have the courtesy to get the name of a poster correct ….

[SuzAndTheDiva]

sooo did my questions get answered – couldnt find the answers anywhere.

I will ask again (third time lucky maybe? )

Phil tell me if raw food is so bad  –  why is my dogs skin problems better than they have been in years – and why commercial diets and vet meds didnt help – come on you must have some scientific studies somewhere to answer that? How something SO bad has saved my dog from a life of steroids – because that was the next route nothing else was working. The raw diet has helped so much even her seasonal allergies are reduced…………..

Im not trying to be facitious or anything – im interested – you talk the talk yet dont answer my questions? why not??

[**Woofums**]

[quote author=PhiltheBear link=topic=12345.msg238801#msg238801 date=1220289380]

:nono: You obviously haven’t ever done any research. The very first thing in proper research is to investigate what other research has been carried out. The results of that aren’t, as you mistakenly think, hearsay. Hearsay is when you say something that isn’t verifiable.

Where do you get the idea from that “Controlled research is carried out on perfect specimens”? Do show me a verifiable source. It’s simply not true.[/quote]

On the contrary..I have carried out umpteen research experiments. ( such a hard life being a swot)
Controlled research (which you mentioned) is always done on identical perfect specimens. The basis behind this is, any imperfections, illness, mental problems, weight loss /gain can then be attributed to be the result of the experiment….& not an ongoing condition.
You have to compare like with like to get a true, genuine, result.

Anyway, not sure what  you are trying to do here.
Are you trying to educate us (coz we iz ignorant) ?
Sell something ?
Make us feel guilty for feeding our Dogs badly for all these years ?
Brush up your social skills ?
Brighten up our evenings with your witty banter ?
Or something else………………..?

[Kerry_and_Beau]

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0010677

are these the idiots that quoted about garlic & cancer?

its funny but if you spend 5 minutes on google you can find anything to support any argument…the funny thing is you are going on and on about studies not being done…well why are studies not done re raw feeding & holistic therapies? maybe because the people that do these therapies would lose out financially if they proved them wrong!! just like medical studies and research! tell me Mr knowitall, companies that develop new drugs ..where do they look? do they look at things that are already around to see if they will work? no…do they look to nature…no do they try to find/develop something completely new?? yes…and why? money obviously if it already exists it belongs to someone else so no money there, if its from nature anyone could develop it (cheaper) so no money there….medical companies rule people’s lives, as you may be aware in the uk we have the nhs, well these wonderful drug companies that control drugs (by making them very expensive) allow people everyday to die because they can’t afford drugs!!

and to go back to the usa and dog food….where is that report about the dog food

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-03-19-pet-food-recall_N.htm

http://www.api4animals.org/facts.php?p=359&more=1

so Mr ‘medicine is right and holistic is pathetic’ go shove it up your arse because you are a complete tit! i have no idea why you are here, you are not trying to teach anyone anything you are just preaching a one sided argument as if you are from either a dog food company or a drug company!!

i’m done  :ok:

[Author]

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