Re: German Shepherd diet hijack

[kizkiznobite]

wolves die in the wild at 10 because they eat raw food ??  is that what you are saying ?? whereas in captivity they live until 20…. ??

well…i think there may just be other factors involved dont you?….

those in captivity have got it made i reckon bit like pet dogs..why else did dogs shack up with man some 13,000 years ago…they aint daft……and these wolves in captivity… :what: …they not fed natural food ? …they get bakers complete eh? or maybe a tin pedigree chum and some bonios…  :whatever:

i am booking up to do a course with the ‘wolfman’  i will make sure i ask re feeding…. 🙂

[SuzAndTheDiva]

Bev you just posted exactly what I was thinking last night…………….

Wouldnt a study of wolves eating commercial food be interesting (i wouldnt want them to go through that of course) think it might just blow your scientific studies right out the water  :yes: Wonder if they would still live to such a good age – and what their level of necessary medical care would be??  :agree:

Bev not to go off topic – but the wolfman that was on MArtin CLunes show? He is incredible………..

[kizkiznobite]

I’ve spent the best part of 6 months looking for that sort of evidence – not hearsay, not individuals claiming they know best, not conspiracy theorists who think that vets only recommend diets to line their own pockets ……..etc etc etc

:read:

‘”We are seeing disease conditions in animals that we did not see years ago. Many of these may be traced to nutrition as the source…” Don E. Lundholm, DVM

Dr. Kollath, of the Karolinska Hospital in Stockholm, headed a study done on animals. When young animals were fed cooked and processed foods they initially appeared to be healthy. However, as the animals reached adulthood, they began to age more quickly than normal and also developed chronic degenerative disease symptoms. A control group of animals raised on raw foods aged less quickly and were free of degenerative disease. In nature, we see another example of wild animals eating entirely enzyme rich raw foods being free of the degenerative diseases that afflict humans.

If you spend a little time observing the physical condition of animals in the wild, you will find that so-called degenerative or old age diseases are relatively unknown to them. Except for the danger from natural predators, wild animals generally live quite long and healthy lives. Now, what happens when we domesticate animals and make them into house pets? Are you aware that they quickly develop the same diseases as their human “owners”?’

[kizkiznobite]

yes suz…he does behavioural courses/communication …i have this urge to be head rubbed by a wolf  ;D

Mo said ‘it just confirms that you are seriously nuts and up the life insurance before you go’  ;D

[Anonymous]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12345.msg238885#msg238885 date=1220341278]
I’ve spent the best part of 6 months looking for that sort of evidence – not hearsay, not individuals claiming they know best, not conspiracy theorists who think that vets only recommend diets to line their own pockets ……..etc etc etc

:read:

‘”We are seeing disease conditions in animals that we did not see years ago. Many of these may be traced to nutrition as the source…” Don E. Lundholm, DVM

Dr. Kollath, of the Karolinska Hospital in Stockholm, headed a study done on animals. When young animals were fed cooked and processed foods they initially appeared to be healthy. However, as the animals reached adulthood, they began to age more quickly than normal and also developed chronic degenerative disease symptoms. A control group of animals raised on raw foods aged less quickly and were free of degenerative disease. In nature, we see another example of wild animals eating entirely enzyme rich raw foods being free of the degenerative diseases that afflict humans.

If you spend a little time observing the physical condition of animals in the wild, you will find that so-called degenerative or old age diseases are relatively unknown to them. Except for the danger from natural predators, wild animals generally live quite long and healthy lives. Now, what happens when we domesticate animals and make them into house pets? Are you aware that they quickly develop the same diseases as their human “owners”?’

[/quote]

I’ll come back to all the rest of the rubbish and personal attacks later. But your post illustrates perfectly that you’ll believe anything you read on the net.

Have a look at http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/117961497/toc

It’s the index to the British Journal of Small Animal Practice – in which the (in)famous Dr Kollath was supposed to have published his article in December 1995. Except – he didn’t. There’s no such article in December 1995. Wait, there’s no such article in 1995. Actually, Dr Kollath has never published in this Journal. Other than a Hungarian State lawyer there doesn’t seem to be a Gyorgy Kollath published in ANY journal, anywhere. Could that be because this is a complete lie?

So, if you are going to quote stuff – at least make sure it exists and isn’t a figment of someone’s imagination – which this supposed article is.

If you had bothered to investigate properly what you will find is that someone* originally quoted a totally different piece of research – on Periodontal disease and leucopenia – and that got linked with Dr Kollath’s supposed research simply because both appeared in the same paragraph.  Unless you think that the Hungarian State Lawyer who shares the same name is an expert on animal feeding please do produce the original research. I’d be delighted to read it.

But looking for genuine evidence isn’t a strong point is it?

* the quotation was made in “12 Steps to Raw Foods” by Victoria Boutenko. Her contention that Lonsdale stated that processed pet foods suppresses the immune system and causes damage to various organs is completely made up. Lonsdale’s paper was about tooth and gum disease! And, her book is about raw foods for humans – not dogs.

[Sweetypye]

http://www.b-naturals.com/page?id=18

I am not sure why I am posting Lew Olson PhD page as all YOUR experts are better, more knowledgeable, more experienced, more skilled, better trained than any experts WE can post.

I and no doubt several others on this forum have worked with and met several individuals like yourself during my lifetime.

There is a generic name for such individuals.

“Topper”

As anything anyone has ever done they have done it better, faster, stronger, longer, etc etc etc.

But I for one cannot wait for YOUR website which will be filled with facts based on your extensive empirical knowledge (rather than the regurgitation of information that supports your stance which anyone including myself can google), we are so lucky, we have so much to learn…………. :alien: :clown:

[*Lassie*]

http://www.canineworld.com/drdym/

Michael E Dym, VMD

[Anonymous]

Philthebore what is it you actually want?

You have only contributed to one thread in particular and despite being asked to give it a rest you continue to lecture us, yet you don’t seem to want to answer any of the legitimate questions put to you – so what exactly are you here for? Are you just here to have arguments and to flame anyone who doesn’t agree with you? Several whinging posts ago you said you were going to give it up, what changed your mind?

What dogs do you have?

What do you feed your dogs?

Are they involved in Shcutz?

Do you have an ulterior motive?

What age have your dogs lived to?

What health systems do you follow to keep them in shape?

Are you a pet food salesman?

[Anonymous]

[quote author=PhiltheBear link=topic=12345.msg238809#msg238809 date=1220292131]
[quote author=Mark. link=topic=12345.msg238806#msg238806 date=1220291411]
“What a pompous twat” would have sufficed SP.  😉 ;D
[/quote]

Much better to be called pompous than stupid.
[/quote]

So you don’t dispute being a twat then?

[Anonymous]

[quote author=*Lassie* link=topic=12345.msg238907#msg238907 date=1220366030]
http://www.canineworld.com/drdym/

Michael E Dym, VMD
[/quote]

Well, as Dr Dym has joined us, perhaps he would be so kind as to indicate any peer reviewed articles which substantiate any claim for the efficacy of homoeopathy in dogs? After all, that is the specialisation, is it not?

As for Lew Olson – all that page says is that she’s qualified. So am I. So what?

The whole reason I’m interested in this is that I am qualified in Herbal Medicine (for humans). And I’m very interested in the idea of feeding a holistic diet to my dog.

However, unlike you, I’m not prepared to take someone else’s word that their pet diet is OK. Why should I take any individual’s word over, say, a Pet Food manufacturer?

Also, unlike you, I’ve spent a lot of time looking at this. And I really, really want to find realistic evidence that the claims of BARF diet etc are upholdable. But the simple fact of the matter is – I can’t. Unlike you guys who would rather shout and scream I’m looking for evidence to prove what you are all so desperate to tell me. But just saying – I’ve fed X and it works – isn’t good enough. If you’d fed X to half your pets and Y to the other half – and there was a genuine difference – fine. But we all know that you haven’t done that.

Let’s be real simple here.

1. The digestive system of dogs and humans is different. If you don’t believe that – you eat raw chicken and feed chocolate to your dog. Have a race to see who gets most ill.

2. Because they are different – what is OK for humans especially including herbal remedies may not be OK for animals.

3. There is virtually no research on herbal preparations for animals – because it’s actually illegal to do such studies unless they are carried out by a qualified vet. So, if I think giving garlic (for example) would have the same effect on my dog as I would expect it to have on a human I am prohibited – by law – from testing it. Medically speaking your pets have much better protection that you have. If you give your dog any kind of medicine – herbal, homoeopathic, whatever – and it has a negative effect then you can be prosecuted. Unless, of course, you gave it on the advice of a vet.

4. There is NO research behind the BARF diet. It sounds convincing – after all dogs are 99% the same as wolves, aren’t they? Well, no – they aren’t. Because humans have been screwing with their genetic patterns by in-breeding them into different shapes, sizes, temperaments, etc. You think a chihuahua is going out to hunt and eat an elk? Can you explain why 40% of Cavalier King Charles have heart problems? Why ‘German’ German shepherds have froggy legs? Because Ii don’t see much evidence of any of that in wolves. And because humans have messed with their physiology we’ve also messed with their dietary needs.

5. There are a lot of people who feed raw food diets. There are also an enormous number of misconceptions. Recently in this very thread someone mentioned serotonin – in context of giving his/her dog a supplement. (Quite why a manufactured supplement is better than a natural conversion of food I’m not sure, when the rest of the post was all about how good natural food was.) However, it’s a fact (and, please feel free to check this out) that serotonin can ONLY be derived from carbohydrate. Serotonin is the neurotransmitter which is responsible for feeling happy and relaxed.

Other people have posted that dogs don’t need carbohydrate as part of their diets. In essence that’s true – because a dog will render down fat into the necessary glucoses required. And those glucoses are, in part, responsible for the production of the neurotransmitters dopamine and noradrenalin. These neurotransmitters are implied in motivation, co-ordination and movement. All three neurotransmitters (including serotonin) travel down the same neural passageways at the same time. Therefore, if there is an imbalance between protein and carbohydrate this can cause some of the neurotransmitters to get pushed back out through the blood-brain barrier and into the bloodstream where it gets lost. 

The dog’s system will not render fat into serotonin.  As a result dogs deprived of carbohydrate will tend to be more hyperactive, nervous and aggressive – because they lack serotonin balance.

6. What about the idea that because wolves are happy eating fur /feather / bone then dogs should be too? Quantifiable research shows that when wolves eat their first droppings are almost entirely liquid. Later droppings have a strange composition in that any bone fragments appear to be wrapped in fur/hair. If the person going on a Shaun Ellis course wants to ask him – he’ll confirm it. Do dogs exhibit that same pattern when you feed them raw food with bones?

7. Again and again people have posted web pages here that, while perfectly interesting, don’t carry any proof that what they say works. You’ve quoted experts – who turn out to be mythical. You resort to abuse when you don’t have any valid arguments (and I’ve checked other threads here where the same person does exactly the same thing when she – I assume it’s a she – doesn’t get her own way).

So, here’s a simple request – show me any valid research which backs up your claims that a raw / natural diet is the best thing to give your dog. Don’t shout, scream or embarrass yourself in any other way. Just provide a citation to some independent research to prove you are right. I’ve spent 6 months doing this. I’ve checked out University libraries, scientific journals, current research programmes in the UK and I haven’t found ANY. But I really want to be convinced – because common sense indicates that feeding non-processed foods ought to be better.

Can you do it? Or will you just resort to name-calling?

[Sweetypye]

Actually there is lots of stuff out there for dogs, apart from the references we have sent you.  Have you actually read the Tilford Herbal bible?

Why not educate yourself.

There are also plenty of holistic and herbal vets around. Perhaps you have not found them, again some of these were referenced in another post.

I am thrilled that you know exactly how much time I have or have not dedicated to the study of canine nutrition.  Along with all your other qualifications you are a mindreader as well, Are there no beginnings to your compendium of ignorance?

I do not take someone else’s word for diets, I take several people’s words, those who have scientific and empirical knowledge rather than an internet surfer.  But most of all the condition of my dogs, physical, emotional and mental states as verified by my vets.

Your statements on giving our dogs any sort of preparation without the advice of a vet leading to prosecution, are completely untruel. I am sure you have googled that opinion, but it is not a fact.

Serotonin cannot be only sourced from a carbohydrate; tryptophan is a precursor of serotonin, which is available from many sources including meat.  One can also provide this via 5HTP etc.

Your research is sadly lacking as you do not have ALL the facts.

There is no proven need for carbohydratres in the dogs diet,if there were how do you think wild canids get it?

Do they pop into the local supermarket and pick up some processed grain to cook?

I think not.

Google some studies on sled dogs etc, or the Pedigree dog food site which has this information in it.

Dogs as you rightly point out, do not metabolise foods in the same way as humans, they get their energy from FATS not carbs.

Another amazing fact, you know that ALL our dogs that are fed carb free diets are hyperactive, nervous and aggressive?

Tell that to my PAT dog!  Tell it to both my dogs who happen to be at the top of their trees in the competitive world in more than one discipline.

You are so amusing.  I do not need research to give me this information, I am surrounded by raw fed dogs every day, even more at weekends and at competitions, hyperactive, nervous and aggressive dogs do not do well in competitions whatever the discipline.

My DOGS and my RESULTS are the only PROOF that I need, much more conclusive than any amount of web trawling or research by numpties like yourself who have not achieved anything in the dog world in any sphere with any breed.

But continue posting, it is a bit like the Jeremy Vile show, endlessly fascinating how people want to advertise their ignorance and stupidity repeatedly in public!  :ok: ;D :educated:

[Sweetypye]

For those of you who may be unfamiliar with Serotonin the process is this:

The body converts the amino acid tryptophan into 5 HTP which is then converted to serotonin.

Bananas, milk, grapefruit, nuts, eggs and turkey are all sources RICH in tryptophan, there are others

[Anonymous]

Oh dear – seetpea (or whatever her name is) is throwing teddy out of the pram. As usual – it’s a case of shout – and nothing else.

:read: What she has just posted is DANGEROUS and UNTRUE.

Let me direct you to the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 and the Animal Welfare Act 2006. The law is specific. Only a qualified veterinary surgeon is allowed to treat animals. You can give your own animal ‘minor medical treatment’. Section 19 of the 1966 Act says that, with certain exceptions, only registered veterinary surgeons may practise veterinary surgery. There is no exception for non-vets including pharmacists, herbalists, aromatherapists, homoeopaths, acupuncturists, etc. Even Doctors and dentists can only carry out treatment if requested to do so by a vet.

The Veterinary Regulation of 2007 specify who may prescribe and supply medicines, and that prescription and supply otherwise than in accordance with the 1966 and 2006 act is NOT legal – even if a vet approves it. So if you prescribe a medicine for your pet you ARE breaking the law. Further, no non-vet practitioners may treat animals (other than for physiotherapy) even under a vet’s supervision.

If an owner and a non-veterinary qualified person have treated an animal or a non-qualified person supplies a ‘medicine’ to an owner and the animal fails to respond or gets worse as a result of that treatment BOTH are liable to criminal prosecution.

And that’s why there’s so little research in this area – because it’s illegal for non-vets to do it.

So, that is a fact – unlike your worthless opinions.

Now, I’ll ask the question I asked previously, does anyone have any genuine evidence of research that proves a raw food diet is ‘better’? Or have I got to suffer seetpea giving out more rubbish?

[Anonymous]

How very predictable, you seem to be avoiding answering simple questions again.

What do you actually want?

What dogs do you have?

What do you feed your dogs?

Are they involved in Shcutz?

Do you have an ulterior motive?

What age have your dogs lived to?

What health systems do you follow to keep them in shape?

Are you a pet food salesman?

[Sweetypye]

You can give your OWN pets homeopathy, massage, acupuncture etc etc etc

Thousands do!

Now, please refute the Serotonin statement.

And there are so many questions we have asked you which you have still failed to answer.

Which is the large security firm your wife presided over and in what capacity, so we can verify your claims.

You have made many claims and not verified ONE of them.

Why not go back under thr bridge?!

:whatever:

You keep asking your questions and getting no response and we will do the same.

Trip Trap trip trap.

[Author]

Posts