Really like this quote – dominance

[*Lassie*]

Do cats have matriarchal societies? I had a feeling they did but can’t remember
Don’t think so, with the big cats the females do most of the work while the males laze around and mate with any available female, bit like human males really ::)
Dogs, bitches rule 😉

[kizkiznobite]

yes nick…the biological mother has done her bit because the pack manger could not whelp for whatever reason …that biological mother …unless she is stronger in body and prepared to fight the pack managing female ( at risk as the rest of the pack would fight her too) ….then loses her pups to the pack manager…mum then has a choice…she accepts that or she is excluded or she is killed…as maternal intincts are strong the normal average is that she is killed…

a pack leader/manager ..in a feral pack one and the same…for ease of human speak i tend to refer to myself as the human pack manager and my pack ‘boss’ as the dog pack manager/leader..it changes with human involvement…i shop …i bring home the bacon so to speak… i then hand on the responsibility for the distribution…i try to copy pack stuff…but if they catch…as in they hunt…what i am saying is that i expect the q…the can i have can i do…or do you want….ami caught a rabbit today in the dunes…gracie was all yeah yeah yeah…ami actually growled her off in order to deliver and ask ..is this ours? it is this that man has trapped from domesticated dogs…

there is only one main reason why a pack would leave the safety of the den and expose themselves to the big wide dangerous world..and that is to hunt for food..and as the female bossdog is either pregnant, raising, has milk, just post whelp, is pre whelp etc…then she is not physically fit…but her brain is..and she sets them for the hunt…she wakes them and says hey..we need food…she may plan the hunt depending on her level of stamina…as in we take that one because it weak…but it the boyo…her mate that does the heavy stuff…he fitter he stronger he has babes to feed and a pack to earn respect from..to use anthropomorphism….and so he heads the hunt in that sense…a pack is what it is literally…it a PACK…it is a survival mechanism…
in the home? with domestic canines ..a pack is a pack still…copy it and you got it made  🙂

[*Nick*]

fantastic post!  :agree:

[kizkiznobite]

ok …thanks… now then
return to your original post…and ….. ;D and actually i am off to get a drink and a fag…you can re ask… 😀  :-*

[*Nick*]

So, are you saying that a pack is a cooperative effort and that there really is no “dominance” per se but a distribution of roles set out in a very defined manner thereby making the original quote in this thread quite accurate?  ;D

[kizkiznobite]

that depends… 🙂

[GSPmad]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243183#msg243183 date=1222725967]
….ami caught a rabbit today in the dunes…gracie was all yeah yeah yeah…ami actually growled her off in order to deliver and ask ..is this ours? it is this that man has trapped from domesticated dogs…
[/quote]

is interesting actually… have never seen this with anyone’s dog except once – friend’s dog when i was younger – lab – if she was given a biscuit by someone she would take it to him to see if he wanted it or if she was to have it.  🙂

[*Nick*]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243194#msg243194 date=1222728389]
that depends… 🙂
[/quote]

Do NOT make me come over there!!  >:D

really thought I had it that time

But it’s all to do with the maintenance of the pack as a whole?  food to keep the pack strong and breeding to peprpetuate

and the fear and risk of exclusion keeps everyone in line?

[GSPmad]

[quote author=*Nick* link=topic=12580.msg243196#msg243196 date=1222728739]
[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243194#msg243194 date=1222728389]
that depends… 🙂
[/quote]

Do NOT make me come over there!!  >:D

really thought I had it that time

But it’s all to do with the maintenance of the pack as a whole?  food to keep the pack strong and breeding to peprpetuate

and the fear and risk of exclusion keeps everyone in line?
[/quote]

keep going bev…. we want nick to come over.  ;D :-*

[kizkiznobite]

and the fear and risk of exclusion keeps everyone in line?

errmm hehe  :D…now thats a nice tie in to the other thread …so you think canines do have a concept of the future  🙂

[*Nick*]

heavens to mergatroid I do not know the answer to that question and neither does anyone else I would venture.

My best guess would be no. At least not in the way that we conceive the future.

However, to use an example near and dear to me….my girl Sadie will sometimes wake me up at 6ish in the morning by whining, licking and generally  making all the “I need to go peepeepoopoo” histrionics…except, when I jump out of bed to let her out she’ll go half way down the stairs then rush back up, jump on the bed and curl up on my pillow next to her mum.  :tease: 

Is this future thought? Or is it reasoning?    I want on the pillow, i need to get him off the pillow etc etc  Or is it just being a mean and rotten brat?

[*Nick*]

and the fear and risk of exclusion keeps everyone in line?

wouldn’t that be more along the lines of self-survival?  meaning “I want to remain in the pack to ensure my survival which also helps the pack survive”

[GSPmad]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243203#msg243203 date=1222759105]

and the fear and risk of exclusion keeps everyone in line?

errmm hehe  :D…now thats a nice tie in to the other thread …so you think canines do have a concept of the future  🙂
[/quote]

But it could merely be an instinctive behaviour couldn’t it?  :-\ As in they are programmed to know that without having a future concept – iyswim.  ;D

[Dree]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243183#msg243183 date=1222725967]
yes nick…the biological mother has done her bit because the pack manger could not whelp for whatever reason …that biological mother …unless she is stronger in body and prepared to fight the pack managing female ( at risk as the rest of the pack would fight her too) ….then loses her pups to the pack manager…mum then has a choice…she accepts that or she is excluded or she is killed…as maternal intincts are strong the normal average is that she is killed…
[/quote]

Can you please give me the source of this information?  I have never heard of a mother being killed in a pack.  Nor is it always the dominant female that whelps.  In “Innocent Killers” by Jane Goodall and Hugo van Lawick, in a pack of wild dogs, the lowest ranking female (of four) gave birth, and the whole pack helped to raise the pups.  Whichever female has the pups, she does not join in the hunt.

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243183#msg243183 date=1222725967]
there is only one main reason why a pack would leave the safety of the den and expose themselves to the big wide dangerous world..and that is to hunt for food..and as the female bossdog is either pregnant, raising, has milk, just post whelp, is pre whelp etc…then she is not physically fit…but her brain is..and she sets them for the hunt…she wakes them and says hey..we need food…she may plan the hunt depending on her level of stamina…as in we take that one because it weak…but it the boyo…her mate that does the heavy stuff…he fitter he stronger he has babes to feed and a pack to earn respect from..to use anthropomorphism….and so he heads the hunt in that sense…a pack is what it is literally…it a PACK…it is a survival mechanism…
in the home? with domestic canines ..a pack is a pack still…copy it and you got it made  🙂
[/quote]

Again, a source for this please.  From the same book…it is the dominant dog which initiates the “greeting” between the pack, and starts off on the hunt.  The dominant female (whether in pup or not) does not start the hunt.  In fact, there’s no way a bitch with pups can actually plan a hunt as she does not leave the den.  As wild dogs can travel a few miles before they find their prey, the “decision” as to which animal is picked out for the kill can only be taken on the move.

[GSPmad]

Dree, could you clarify what you mean by the ‘dominant’ female?  🙂 What behaviours specifically make her ‘dominant’? (Think I mentioned at the start of the thread that it’s a word I hate.  ;D ) Thanks.  🙂

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