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Really like this quote – dominance

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Viewing 12 posts - 46 through 57 (of 57 total)
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  • #69642
    Dree
    Member

    [quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12580.msg243332#msg243332 date=1222814368]
    Dree, could you clarify what you mean by the ‘dominant’ female?  🙂 What behaviours specifically make her ‘dominant’? (Think I mentioned at the start of the thread that it’s a word I hate.  ;D ) Thanks.  🙂
    [/quote]

    It’s the author who describes the pack hierarchy and uses the word dominant.  A wild dog pack has two separate hierarchies, the male and the female.  In the pack they followed for years, there were four females, and all were given names, with “Havoc” the dominant female.  She displayed dominance by marking around the den, which none of the other bitches did.  She “reprimanded” the other bitches for breach of etiquette by nipping.  The other females were subordinate in the way they approached her….ears back, licking, showing their neck, one of them lying on her back, ingratiating themselves to her, etc.

    #69643
    kizkiznobite
    Member

    there are many studies recorded…mech, schenkel for example…the bbc did a brill series on african dogs showing exactly what i described when a female gave birth and the pack manager took the pups and excluded the biological mother from the den… african dogs live and hunt in packs and yes males assist in raising the pups and many remain with their pack for life but the females leave their birth pack upon maturing to join/create a pack with no or only much lower ranking females and usually only one female breeds unless…as i said she is unable to for what ever reason….

    Jayne Goodall’s video ..dogs of africa..made in 1973… also documents the behaviour of the ranking female re pups from a lower status female

    and please dree…actually read what posts say eh?  did i say the female manager went hunting when there are pups or she not fit….?  ::)

    what i said was she ‘set’s’ them for the hunt and may plan the hunt depending on her level of stamina…as in if she is able to leave the den she will go and hunt with her mate…..

    and as far as i recall ‘innocent killers’ was predominantly about the spotted hyena was it not  :-\….with parts re i think jackals and a touch on african dogs…unless i am getting mixed up with some of her other work…

    #69644
    Dree
    Member

    [quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243340#msg243340 date=1222850780]
    there are many studies recorded…mech, schenkel for example…the bbc did a brill series on african dogs showing exactly what i described when a female gave birth and the pack manager took the pups and excluded the biological mother from the den… african dogs live and hunt in packs and yes males assist in raising the pups and many remain with their pack for life but the females leave their birth pack upon maturing to join/create a pack with no or only much lower ranking females and usually only one female breeds unless…as i said she is unable to for what ever reason….
    [/quote]

    You said in your post:-mum then has a choice…she accepts that or she is excluded or she is killed…as maternal intincts are strong the normal average is that she is killed…  Are you saying that the programmed showed a bitch being killed?  Because being excluded is very different from being killed….and excluded for how long?  In “Innocent Killers” the alpha female did actually exclude the lower ranking female from her own pups for some time…we are talking some hours..but then let her into the den again.  Again….can I ask where you get the information from that females are actually killed by others in the pack, as I have never, ever heard of this, either in wild dogs or in wolves.

    I did not say that males (or females) stay with the pack for life.  With wolves, youngsters leave the pack around two years of age in order to pair up with another wolf, and form their own pack.  In a wolf pack, the pack consists of the mating pair and their offspring. 

    I find this interesting….from this site:-
    http://fwcb.cfans.umn.edu/courses/fw8576/SocialDynMech_1999.pdf
    “Contrary to this view, I propose that all young wolves are potential breeders and that when they do breed they automatically become alphas (Mech 1970). Even in captive packs, individuals gain or lose alpha status (Zimen 1976), so individual wolves do not have an inherent permanent social status..”

    [quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243340#msg243340 date=1222850780]
    Jayne Goodall’s video ..dogs of africa..made in 1973… also documents the behaviour of the ranking female re pups from a lower status female
    [/quote]

    Can’t remember ever seeing the video, but if it reflects her book, then the alpha female excluded the actual mother for some time from her own pups, but then allowed her back into the den…as said above.  The lower ranking female was never hurt by the higher ranking female.

    [quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243340#msg243340 date=1222850780]
    and please dree…actually read what posts say eh?  did i say the female manager went hunting when there are pups or she not fit….?  ::)
    [/quote]

    I did read the post.  No, you didn’t….and I didn’t say you did.  🙂 

    [quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243340#msg243340 date=1222850780]
    what i said was she ‘set’s’ them for the hunt and may plan the hunt depending on her level of stamina…as in if she is able to leave the den she will go and hunt with her mate…..
    [/quote]

    And again I ask for confirmation of this.  Since both wolves and dogs travel some distance before they even come across a herd, there is no way that any female which is staying behind at the den can instigate a hunt, never mind plan the hunt which is what you said.  How does any dog “plan” a hunt?  The picking up of a herd (or a single kill), the instigation of the chase, which dogs take up which running position, etc. are incredibly subtle signals, and I have yet to read of a female being the “hunt leader”.

    [quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243340#msg243340 date=1222850780]
    and as far as i recall ‘innocent killers’ was predominantly about the spotted hyena was it not  :-\….with parts re i think jackals and a touch on african dogs…unless i am getting mixed up with some of her other work…
    [/quote]

    “Innocent Killers” covered the Wild Dogs, the hyena and the jackal equally.

    Just as a PS.  This site is great re: “dominance” and the wolf.
    http://fwcb.cfans.umn.edu/courses/fw8576/SocialDynMech_1999.pdf
    “The only consistent demonstration of rank in natural packs is the animals’ postures during social interaction.  Dominant wolves assume the classic canid standing posture with tail up at least horizontally, and subordinate or submissive individuals lower themselves and “cringe” (Darwin
    1877). In fact, submission itself may be as important as dominance in terms of promoting friendly relations or reducing social distance.”

    #69645
    Izzie
    Member

    Hmm, now I would reply to a question you posed to me Dree, but your question is to Bev

    Can I point out I am not Bev- as Deebee and Mark can back up seeing as they have met both of us!  🙂

    #69646

    Yep Izzie and Bev = two different people………. ;D

    #69647
    GSPmad
    Member

    [quote author=SuzAndTheDiva link=topic=12580.msg243519#msg243519 date=1222981448]
    Yep Izzie and Bev = two different people………. ;D
    [/quote]

    I can second that – though admittedly haven’t seen both at the same time…  :suspious:

    #69648
    Dree
    Member

    [quote author=Izzie link=topic=12580.msg243499#msg243499 date=1222978194]
    Hmm, now I would reply to a question you posed to me Dree, but your question is to Bev

    Can I point out I am not Bev- as Deebee and Mark can back up seeing as they have met both of us!  🙂
    [/quote]

    Oops!!!  Sorry!  :embarrass:  I’m obviously confused!!!  😀  Apologies.

    #69649
    Dree
    Member

    [quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12580.msg243528#msg243528 date=1222981943]

    I can second that – though admittedly haven’t seen both at the same time…  :suspious:
    [/quote]

    Hmmm…..so could be the same person, but in disguise?  :canadian:

    #69650
    Izzie
    Member

    No but Piglet and Deebee know both of us and have seen both of us at the same time 😉

    #69651
    Dree
    Member

    [quote author=Izzie link=topic=12580.msg243538#msg243538 date=1222983098]
    No but Piglet and Deebee know both of us and have seen both of us at the same time 😉
    [/quote]

    Aaah.  Glad to have cleared that up.  No need to call the FBI then.  :happy:

    #69652
    Izzie
    Member

    [quote author=Dree link=topic=12580.msg243540#msg243540 date=1222983261]
    [quote author=Izzie link=topic=12580.msg243538#msg243538 date=1222983098]
    No but Piglet and Deebee know both of us and have seen both of us at the same time 😉
    [/quote]

    Aaah.  Glad to have cleared that up.  No need to call the FBI then.  :happy:
    [/quote]

    Well, not yet!  😀

    #69653
    deebee
    Member

    [quote author=Izzie link=topic=12580.msg243538#msg243538 date=1222983098]
    No but Piglet and Deebee know both of us and have seen both of us at the same time 😉
    [/quote]

    i can confirm that i have seen them both, at the same time, your honour.

Viewing 12 posts - 46 through 57 (of 57 total)
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