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  • #68293
    kizkiznobite
    Member

    been debated on radio 4 yesterday/today with a call in …just in case anyone wants to go listen…

    #68294
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Any idea what time? What was the program called on radio4?

    #68295
    kizkiznobite
    Member

    if you go on the bbc/radio 4 site you can re listen to ‘old’ progs ..so to speak..it was the panel yesterday and dimble’s/… phone in today prog..sorry i am a r 4 listener…about 2.15 today…amonst sex offender stuff…a bit like j vines r2 prog..if you can’t find it then nudge me and will go look for a link…

    #68296
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Can’t find it. I haven’t a clue what program to look for there’s dozens on the listen again page.  :-\

    #68297
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Found it.  :ok:

    #68298
    Bevers2406
    Member

    Just spotted the post about my breeding from the 70s and 80s! I think if you review my post you’ll see that I said that the early litters were using outcrossing – then later we line bred – but of course when I say outcross, as outcrossed as you can get in a breed that started off with only a handful of dogs!

    By outcross I mean there were no dogs repeated in the sire and dam’s side for the first  2 or 3 generations at least (but I am only going by memory here and this was a few decades ago now).

    I don’t have the books to look it all up to hand – but those sires again if you want to double check (!) –
    Ch Charncroft Corinth ex Ch Edenborough Sweet Lady,
    Ch Pepperland Lyric John of Potterdale  ex Ch Edenborough Sweet Lady.

    Then fairly distant line breeding to Blue Bracken:  Ch Edenborough Star Turn at Beagold ex Ch Dearbolt Lady Ancorrie,
    then an outcross Ch Oroa’s Frank ex Ch Dearbolt Lady Ancorrie.

    Then another outcross Ch Orora’s Impetuosity ex Dearbolt Lady Cordelia (Star Turn ex Ancorrie) – Four really cute pups
    then i think we tried Ch Potterdale Ptolemy on Cordelia  – Philosopher wasn’t having anyof it -6 pups this time
    and then we unusually had a third litter for one of our dogs – but we only had the one puppy by Caesar and that was to Ch Potterdale Philosopher at last – producing Cleopatra who we kept and never bred from.

    Then we tried to line breed – which I do now regret.
    We mated Dearbolt Lady Charalee Fawn (impetuosity ex Cordelia)  to Ch Dearbolt Lord Snooty (Ch Lyric John ex Ch E S Lady)  – which I think, with hindsight, was a bit close.

    (Snooty was a Sweet Lady son and Charalee was her great grandaughter. I know people have gone much, much closer than that, but we were being told that line breeding fixes your type and we didn’t know any better back then! )

    I had long left home by the time Lady Alicia was mated, and to tell you the truth I am not sure I can remember definitely who we mated Alice to, but I think it might have been Snooty. Think that was all the breeding we did, but you’ll probably correct me if not!

    So – I make that one or two litters that were consciously line bred.  As I said earlier.

    We resisted mating Ch Dearbolt Lord Snooty to Ch Dearbolt Lady Ancorrie even though we were advised to by a very senior KC committee member and Ch show BIS judge who said that 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister matings were the foundation of her line.

    And I totally put my hands up! We now have the info re the dangers of line breeding or using popular sires.

    I think it’s dangerous to obsess about individual breed points though. Conformation and therefore ability to do the job was and is always far and above the most important to me in those days when i used to judge – haven’t done it for a few years now, last time was a Beardie show in Germany or Belgium I think. For me breed type issues only came into the equation to split hairs between equally matched dogs that could move like a dream. Eyes are for me the icing on the cake. The Charncroft element we found gave a lovely dark eye, Ancorrie particularly had a gorgeous expression and her daughter Cordelia, too. But for me Lord Snooty was the best dog we ever bred – he moved like a dream and his neck and shoulders, length of back were just to die for. His daughter (who I am embarrassed to say I can’t remember the show name of for the life of me!) was made just as well – but by then we’d tired of showing so no one ever got to see much of her.

    Our dogs life expectancy was pretty good, my old Sal – Lady Charalee Fawn – lived to 16, as did Lady Alicia. Cleo sadly had a doggie equivalent of a stroke and didn’t deal with the disability well and had to be pts at 11 as she was very distressed at being imobilie. Every on else made their teens and had pretty healthy lives.Sal fanously survived Parvo and then liver cancer and pyometra to keep going to 16 – she was as tough as old boots and such a character, she  was a fawn and as you’re interested in eyes – hers were darker than any brown I’ve ever seen!

    #68299
    Anonymous
    Guest

    So inbreeding is only if there are common ancestors in the first three generations & after that the COI doesn’t exist ? That’s news to me.

    I did think that the SIO(Standard Inbreeding Coeffiecient) was based on the first 5 generations & the CIC( Cumulative Inbreeding Coeffecient) was based on as far back as records allow-obviously I am totally wrong.

    Can you tell me how you calculated the COI for your litters ?

    #68300
    Bevers2406
    Member

    Dyane
    I’m delighted you are taking inbreeding so seriously, and as I have said earlier – I can only remember the first 2-3 generations of my dogs pedigrees from the 1970s/80s and I have therefore used ‘unscientific’ language that I have qualified laboriously and not exact coeffiecients of inbreeding which without the paperwork in front of me would be totally impossible to calculate.

    Come on give it a rest!

    I have openly admitted I line-bred in some litters and now regret it.

    This is just you trying to make this personal again – this is a much bigger topic and must be boring the pants off most people! This should be all about using the current scientific knowledge on effective population sizes and moving forwards, in all breeds – people bred very much closer than me in the 70s and 80s and some people are still breeding much closer now. My personal story is unexceptional either way. I am neither a particular saint nor sinner.

    Please try to concentrate on the wider picture instead of just trying to attack me at every step, it’s getting a bit like a surreal Pink Panther movie with me as Peter Sellers. At any moment Dyane will launch herself at me and wrestle me to the floor – and I won’t see where she’s coming from! I certainly hadn’t expected a full scale attack due to not being able to recall Standard Inbreeding Coeffiecient in Bearded Collie pedigrees from the 1970s and 1980s!

    Cheers
    Beverley

    PS I’ve linked a load of stuff on the blog for anyone who is still awake and sticking with this thread… petitions, useful addresses etc should you have seen the BBC1 documentary and want to help change things in the future http://coldwetnose.blogspot.com/ I’m afarid I have no links for people who want to change the past although the KC website may have the details fo the PR company they are using!

    Cheers
    Beverley

    #68301
    Anonymous
    Guest

    [quote author=Bevers2406 link=topic=12233.msg237750#msg237750 date=1219543999]
    This is just you trying to make this personal again – this is a much bigger topic and must be boring the pants off most people!

    Please try to concentrate on the wider picture instead of just trying to attack me at every step,

    Cheers
    Beverley  [/quote]

    Hear Hear   :order:

    Lets cut out the personall stuff and  keep on topic shall we ::)

    #68302

    [quote author=jaydex link=topic=12233.msg237754#msg237754 date=1219569414]
    Hear Hear   :order:
    [/quote]

    LOL, i was waiting for someone to use that smiley!  😀

    #68303

    Personally I find it all quite interesting…………..

    #68304
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Yes Suz I agree it is all very interesting,  I just dont think the thread which is about a program on tv should turn into a personal attack on an individual  :ok:

    #68305
    wags
    Member

    [quote author=jaydex link=topic=12233.msg237822#msg237822 date=1219599589]
    Yes Suz I agree it is all very interesting,  I just dont think the thread which is about a program on tv should turn into a personal attack on an individual  :ok:
    [/quote]

    i think the problem arrises however when someone preaches that its wrong however has done it in the past

    like me preaching smoking is wrong – when in the past ive done it

    its double standards really if you get my meaning  :ok:

    #68306

    nicely explained wags  :ok:

    #68307
    Anonymous
    Guest

    [quote author=wags link=topic=12233.msg237842#msg237842 date=1219603898]

    i think the problem arrises however when someone preaches that its wrong however has done it in the past

    like me preaching smoking is wrong – when in the past ive done it

    its double standards really if you get my meaning  :ok:
    [/quote]

    Totally with you Wags-My three BC’s are”inbred”, however none have any DNA conditions(one is a carrier-but does not have the condition)they are all three fit for purpose & have all shown interest in sheep, despite two of them being 3 generations away from Working dogs(as in stock)My bitch(if she ever has a season will be mated to a suitably health tested ISDS dog to continue their working ability.

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