untrained owners

[deebee]

this is a vent.

went on walk and met a pack of 2 lab x collie  2 little things and 3 people. i saw them 1st and had him on long line. 2 of them came charging up and one stopped to greet while the other ran back abit. they had tried recall (didnt work) and shouted that they were friendly so i let him off. the collie came up, max was rude and she told him so. good?
well not really as the man yelled at her. explaining that she was telling him not to be rude fell on deaf ears. as she did it again he told her off big time and put her on lead. max got distracted by a less confident dog.
i tried again and said it was like me going up to one of them and goosing them and them getting told off for reacting. i waited till i felt he would hear my recall and they tutted that i shouldnt have let him off lead.  >:(

with that amount of dogs off lead you’d hope they’d have a bit of understanding of how they work.

the steam coming out of my ears is slowing down.

[rona]

Things like this seem to happen all the time, some owners just won’t let dogs be dogs

[kizkiznobite]

i have a different view…well no it not different as such…but …errmmm

ok…i actually use this…i use it for testing….but…

heyho at some point cubert will do a recall off kids without arguement and without hesitation  ::) yes cubert you will or as ami says you will go back to wence you came…..

what this stuff on a fail tells me is just that..that dog was set up to fail…and yep i know it hard ..it  hurts ….but…long since learnt this lesson…about 40 years since to be honest….

rule re cues….if you know that it is likely to fail but you go ahead anyway then you have set dog up to fail …if fail happens then you got extinction if it doesnt then you got wayhey yeah…….if someone says it ok my dog is xyz….then..you make your choices..as in well ok but my dog is abc but…….and having made that choice then you deal with the outcome

and i am not having a go..just telling it as it is…proofing is what it is…we proof when we think as in WE not when we think the dog thinks ready to….

so example

cubert…bless his hobbit feet  ::)

by any standard he is a highly cued clumber…i got most at classical and yep we now in GAP mode…not worried..the cues are there and once brain leaves bits they will be again but…the one thing i have struggled with is kids…and yep..it my fault…i want to do stuff with him i have not done before and that involves not just kids but kids with real mental issues so i have over socialised him from the norm in this respect at that most important learning stage..the classical learning stage ( see his thread) …ok that good…fine..but…what it has left me to refine and cue on is …well… kids…any kid is a playground any kid means wayhey…and bear in mind he still a baby boyo he still only 7 months….i have some cues 100% in place…i have other cues almost 100%…

now…do i set him up to fail?  do i let him off leash in a playground of kids when he being exercised?…do i hell as like..because i know that i will get an extinction…would i let him off in a field of dogs? yeah for sure…because i have proofed that and that ok…

not sure how much sense this makes….said many times not good at human speak…but last week

in a class of kids with aspergers…he got his ear bit bless him…first time off leash in a class of kids with issues  ;D bit by a kiddy who was demonstrating what his white dog does  :-\…my cuby….bless…squealed, sat, looked at child with a what you do that for…then leaped up and kissed him  🙂 amilou would have…errmmmm no we not going there  >:D

dad always said

train the behaviour
add a cue to the behaviour
proof the behaviour in as many environments as possible
if it 99%
then you say dog is trained in ‘that’ behaviour
set dog up to fail and it does fail…then go back to the start and retry

not having a go…just…well just trying to explain a mindset i guess

[Anonymous]

i think she’s saying …

them other dogs failed their cues – owner yells they friendly … your first thought should be owner has NO control over dogs … bye bye dogs and owner.

Claire x

[kizkiznobite]

errmmm maybe…

what i think i am saying is…they say yeah let him off all fine…but…i would then have thought yeah right…well your lot maybe fine and my dog is fine within limits but those limits are a 100 miles apart…i think… :-\

i guess what i am saying is that i wont let anyone else influence …because i wont let anyone else make me risk an extinction or a proofing…but…yep..i am my fathers ( and i guess ..(as in mum had something to do with it regardless how much she say says she didnt haha) … my bolshie mother’s daughter)….and i do have experience and i do feel for mark and dee and others in this sort of situation….

though…widget…widget…tell them re the day i was with you and this sort of happened  :D…

oh what the hell….. 😀

WAGS…HELP……do your stuff… ;D

[GSPmad]

if i have learnt anything it’s that most people with dogs you meet don’t have that much of a clue how they work. i get very excited when i meet sensible ones.  ;D am trying to remember if i ever have round here… mmmm… two off lead dogs run round corner on pavement towards your on lead dog then owner turns corner behind… naaahh… you see someone walking lab by collar (not lead  :-\ ) on other side of road which is eyeballing your dog so you place your dog in a sit on loose leash and get ‘is he grumpy?’ (no but i am  >:D >:D >:D )….. there’s a lot of it about… dogs are sensible (apart from GAP of course  😀 )… people… well people my favourite line of my favourite monty python song “and pray that there’s intelligent life somewhere up in space cos there’s b****r all down here on earth” about sums it up.  ;D

i think bev is also saying that once you’ve etablished other owners are numpties you can use situation as a distraction situation to recall your dog away from once you have trained to that level. but i may be wrong. and i am sure i’m talking drivel.  😀

[Anonymous]

Kiz am wracking brain to think which thing you mean – you talking about Loki?  ???  My brian is like a sieve  (I meant to type brian – I like saying that)

[GSPmad]

[quote author=widget link=topic=12781.msg246796#msg246796 date=1224866361]
Kiz am wracking brain to think which thing you mean – you talking about Loki?  ???  My brian is like a sieve  (I meant to type brian – I like saying that)
[/quote]

doesn’t have anything about something to do with a flat coat does it? i seem to remember something – the words flat coa stick in my mind – either that or ducks.  :-\

[Anonymous]

There was an incident with a flat coat…. mgiht be that one….

Came over and was v. assertive with Loki – Bev did the ‘ole slip lead trick and handed him back to his owner in silence  😀

[kizkiznobite]

owner…you warn previous exp of……i say ok…we deal with…loki cued on a leave …he perfect…he under cue and this dog does what it done in past…loki good boy…follows aunty bev’s cue’s ..yep he wants to pos kill but he a good boy,,, 🙂

i hand back dog having leashed…loki does a last nanananahnah over the bridge..a flatie? think maybe but way bigger than standard?///woman had pigtail…blondish hair sour face…

[deebee]

i wish i lived in nirvana.

if i waited till other dogs were properly cued, then he would never play around here. i rarely have any meetings with dogs unless they are tied up at the shop, other side of the road or are no go types.

it was a narrow path, going towards each other. he on long line. have hardly met other dogs they were relaxed but excited IYSWM. he greeted nice and didnt jump all over them. his rudeness was a nose shoved up the bum of the collie.
i chose the moment of recall to hopefully prevent an extinction. when he slipped his lead last week (?) he avoided me grabbing his collar. i did not  whistle until he came, i whistled at a moment he paused, he came, major treats while trotting the other way.

i cant see how i set him up to fail. i didnt want to avoid his socialising. i judged them to be a relaxed pack, not snarley etc. i did explain he novice at this.

my point was the owner shouting at their dog for doing the right thing. they are not there to use as training aids but they were happy for him to be let off initially, and it was just a woof and snap that she did.

[kizkiznobite]

and shouted that they were friendly so i let him off.

i was going from this…did i mis-understand  :-\

[deebee]

i dont know, can you elucidate?

[kizkiznobite]

you posted:

went on walk and met a pack of 2 lab x collie  2 little things and 3 people. i saw them 1st and had him on long line. 2 of them came charging up and one stopped to greet while the other ran back abit. they had tried recall (didnt work) and shouted that they were friendly so i let him off.

is it me  🙂  :-*

[deebee]

i dont think that worked, i didnt get the quote.

[Author]

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