Forum Replies Created
The Think Tank is designed for everyone to share their dog experiences and for many shades of opinion to be expressed. Thanks to the moderator for posting all the questions in the body of my first post – as it was so long I thought it might be too much for everyone to plough through, but if it means more people read them then great. Someone may have been through something similar and be able to offer valuable insight – there’s been some great posts today so if any have come from this forum, thank you!
It’s your definition as to what is old – as it varies so much between breeds and types and between dogs themselves.
Go on, write it down – the muffins are lovely – we had them on a cake stand at a show in the Vip area and people kept picking them up and thinking they were for people – quite a shock when they discovered they were savoury!
Sorry if Lassie thought i was advocating not talking to your vet, a good alternative vet would be my very first port of call. One who didn’t try to sell you a commercial prescription diet, and one who would help you make your own to suit your dogs should you prefer.
The nutrition element taught at vet school is usually sponsored by a pet food company, so it can take a vet a few years to question what she/he has been told and come up with their own theories.
Finding a vet you can trust is half the battle.
I’d never have risked the liver diet with a brilliant vet telling me to try it.
Raw liver on a dog with terrible digestion problems was against all my instincts, too – but I had tried everything else with zero success so when it was suggested by my quite eccentric vet, I gave it a try. Sally’s upset tum would often be so extreme she’d have blood in it, her spine was sticking up through her coat she as so poorly and her coat was terribly thin. She had a terminal diagnosis so I guess I was happy to give anything a go.
I was a complete sceptic, but on raw liver and carrot juice she quickly became totally firm and really enjoyed the diet when before she’d had no appetite and was often throwing back anything she did eat – apart for stealing broccoli from my shopping!
Pasta was only added a month or so later to start putting on weight as the liver diet was deficient in carbs, but it was brought in gradually and as she seemed tolerant to it we didn’t vary it.
I was a sceptic when I switched, but for eight years my previously very jippy dog had organic NZ lambs liver raw and never again did she ever have an upset tum. Guess when dogs would kill an animal the first things they’d eat is the offal and I doubt they’d have got the pan out then!
It was a long time ago so probably a long time before the raw meaty bone lobby. From doing a bit of digging colitis it is said to be less likely on a raw diet.
Just might be worth checking out a ‘conventional’ raw food forum to see if it might be appropriate in your case? It is as natural diet as you can get.
And it was Chappie – canned that we were talking about. It’s the cheapest and probably the best canned food on the market and great for sensitive tums. But it has to be original flavour – which is fish and rice. It’s not marketed as being for sensitive tums but many vets will tell you how good it is.
Just checking, in my experience Chappie-wise the only really good one for jippy tums is the original flavour. I was quite surprised to find several varieties when I last looked at the shelves. Make sure you’ve not got one of their new-fangled ones.
How about pasta instead of rice? My old girl had liver cancer and had terrible digestion probs – but worked for us may not work for collitis.
I used to give her plain organic pasta, with live yoghurt with the tiniest bit of something tasty like ham cut up very find to make it smell nice. And then at a separate meal raw lambs liver NZ) and organic carrot juice. It used to make me feel a bit queazy – but she loved it!
It was a weird menu – we also added powdered vit c and the vet gave us green capsules of pig’s pancreatic juices to aid digestion but I think they are no longer available.
Before this diet she had terrible upset tums, she was never jippy on this and lived for 7 years on this weird diet and looked amazing. I know collitis is different, but this weird diet was John Carter’s idea – the cancer vet I mentioned on another post – and it was designed to be as simple as possible to give the body the least work to digest it, the pasta meal shouldn’t be too big and was only introduced for our dog after she was stable on the liver and carrot juice. But if my dog could process pasta then there’s a hope your’s could, too!
When I looked at the ingredients in the prescription diets there were so many things you wouldn’t have to add if you made the food yourself fresh – and that would make the dog’s life a lot easy as it was just processing food.
Thank you for those that put their heads above the parapet!
I am so touched by it, it gives me hope that there are more good people than bad in the world!
It does upset me when the word ‘moderator’ really means ‘I don’t like her stance on a totally unrelated issue so do feel free to pick on this woman as much as you like she’s not one of us’.
It is schoolyard at its very worst and that is why I have not bothered stopping by here in a very long time.
I don’t think this should be exclusively Rough, Val and co’s pack, it should be an open forum for people who care about dogs.
I thought the issues that made me risk inevitable and predictable abuse were actually more significant that the inevitable irritation.
I really don’t give a stuff whether Val, Rough and Mark like me. I’ve done my best to be civil – to try to show them a three dimensional human being who just like them loves dogs with a passion – and as they won’t give me a break, life moves on!
What I wanted to do by dropping by here was reach anyone who already knew of John Carter or anyone who had a pet with cancer who might be helped by this story. Linking to the TV clip alone wouldn’t be a great help as it is a very temperamental link and isn’t accessible outside the UK and will disappear in 6 days. It also doesn’t give you any contact details or any bridge to the next part of the story. Via the blog you can laso talk to a sympathetic human being and hopefully get vets using this great drug asap as when your pet has cancer you want help yesterday if possible, I know – I’ve been there.
I happen to know a great deal about this story as it has touched my life very deeply, so it does hurt when my motivations are trivialised. And as to how wide my shoulders are Val, how would you know? I am feeling very vulnerable actually – this is a very emotional subject for me. I cared a lot about John, he tried so hard to save my dad and losing both my parents to cancer in the last few years makes me very reactive and someone taking the p out of me when I’m already weepy does make me question why I bother trying to do anything to help other people when they can be so unspeakably mean.
And in any case, how come I’m to blame for everything? If there’d been sensible, measured health reforms over the decades instead of this dreadful mess there’d have been nothing for the documentary makers to highlight… Have you never heard the phrase – don’t shoot the messenger? It’s so boring – please stop using me as your whipping boy – reform was long overdue, get over it, it’s obvious – move on – stop picking at scabs.
And Rough, what’s your particular problem? You obviously hated me on sight when I was a kid and you’ve just carried it on now for 30 odd years even though I had no idea that you were nursing this weird grudge! I know nothing about you, forget you exist until you attack me again. How much hate can a person carry around as baggage? Just get some counselling or something…
I have spent the last 18 years campaigning for an improvement in dog health and we are finally starting to see some progress on a number of fronts. How does that make me on the other side from anyone who genuinelyloves dogs?
I just came here to pass on some good news, that a wonderful and brave man had achieved his aim – even if he did die broken-hearted.
Cowardly bullies who seem to want to drive away anyone who disagrees with them leaving only one voice in their cosy little world…
And to the nasty few, just because more people don’t bite back – it doesn’t mean they all think you’re right!
I wouldn’t normally rise to the bait, but you caught me feeling human.
I wrote that piece from the heart and I guess that makes me vulnerable.
Good here isn’t it!
Have you read it?
And that is what gets right on my tits Mark because this is a VERY personal story about the man who saved my dog, very nearly saved my dad. Where is this story elsewhere on the web in the depth it is on my blog? No one else knows as much about this story as me because I have been involved in it deeply since 1991. Last night John Carter’s son found my blog and thanked me for it as he had missed the programme himself. I have been emailing with a number of people looking for a UK vet who can prescribe CV247 – all had been surfing web and hadn’t found much to help – all the links for CV247 are on my blog incidentally. I am about to talk to the manufacturers and am heping identify possible UK vets to become stockists. The many people who took part in the clinical trials in the last 15-20 years may not have been watching London Tonight last night and I was hoping to reach as many of them as possible to cheer them up with the news that at last this gentle alternative to chemo may soon be available to all. John died last year, broken hearted that his method had not achieved its licence.
Your sniping saps my energy, I sometimes wonder what is the point in trying to do anything! I was interested in the news that a man’s life’s work would not be in vain, that other people may not lose their pets or parents to cancer or see them ravaged by ineffective and destructive chemo. But sorry to mention it here – do get back to the important deep world stopping discussions that I may have distracted you from.
Spam? Yes I very obviously won’t coming around for tea at your house.
Did you bother to read it?
If you think its funny to joke about cancer then you’ve probably not yet lost anyone to it.
Have uploaded a shorter version of the stories now and corrected the error in the link, do let me know what you think.
Drontal supplied the deserving winners with some lovely prizes (£400 hotel vouchers each for a dog-friendly hotel chain), hence the plug in my first post that included their tag line!
The epetition calls for reform, to make the KC stronger. So it would need to be them that decides which tests in consultation with the breed clubs and the vets. But we need someone to govern, to be responsible and we all need to get behind them.
They need to change constitutionally too – in my opinion – as their current membership system is antiquated and unrepresentative.
The ABS needs either abandoning or revising, it could have been good – but they stuffed it up.
Better to make the assumption that all test and concentrate on educating those that don’t and charging them more until they do rather than the other way around and charging the good!
We’re cancelling our feature on Pekes, btw if the Kc are thinking of radically change they way they are going to look we’ll wait until that sorts it self out – although I must say it’s odd if they’re not talking to the breeders! And I have to say it’s a bit odd that they didn’t take any action on this earlier if they had seen the letter all those years ago from the vet that did the soft palate resection on Danny – if perfection demands surgical enhancement to function… bit of a worry
We are campaigning for a stronger KC where reputable breeding becomes the norm – and the existing good breeders should be screaming for it, too!
The majority of litters registered are from first time breeders who need firm guidance – which they don’t get at the moment.
You’re getting the wrong end of the stick – we totally respect breeders who health test and take notice of the results. But sadly those that test are in the minority – look at the facts. Only 6% of puppies registered in the gundog group in the last BRS were from Accredited Breeders – which is a flawed scheme but better than nothing. It’s a pathetic number.
Only 60,000 Labradors have ever been hip scored since the scheme began over 30 years ago. The KC registers 45k a year. Who in their right mind breeds from untested Labs????
Mandatory testing, controls on effective population sizes by limiting the overuse of sires etc – simple things that need bringing in – well really needed bringing in 20 years ago really when the nordic Kcs brought it in. But certainly need bringing in now.
You make there a distinction between what I want and what you want Val – but we should be on the same side if we love dogs and want there to be a future for pedigree breeds. You might do the right thing, but look at the stats. The majority don’t.
And the feature on Pekes was scheduled from yonks ago – nothing controversial and we just wanted to photograph your dogs, didn’t need any words from you – although we do alwaysinclude one person’s personal exerience of living with their breed- and you get copy approval on that… did you think I’d change your words to say what what precisely? Why are you being so very rude? Saying you can’t trust me is a bit off – isn’t there a moderators handbook that tells you not to overstep those boundaries? It was a perfectly pleasant, polite request! A simple no thank you would have been appreciated – or even a blunt no!
The objective of our Fido Facts is not to promote or push breeds – it’s to give an in-depth guide to anyone choosing a dog – we’ve done over 100 so far with the co-operation of breed clubs many of whom use the end results at Discover Dogs and the like.
If you’d like to reconsider and start again, all I was was asking was if you’d like to come to a photoshoot or if you knew anyone else with a Peke that would…
Eggshells or what!
And Mark, I was just saying if you’re still unsure – give it a few months before you sign. All we’re asking for is to give the KC the backing of legislation to bring in these reforms as they themselves flag that up as stumbling block and why they haven’t followed our Swedish cousins.
And Val, if your beef with Sweden is that more health tests aren’t yet mandatory then why aren’t you backing this petition to get our health testing mandatory?
And finally – puppy farming. If you have a strong Kennel Club, where registration means something puppy farming will become unprofitable. Look at Sweden, no puppy farmers, no pups in pet shops. Strong KCs with meaningful registration clear up a lot of the dog problems in society. Sweden’s response to all canine social issues has been impressive – why wouldn’t we want that here.
Mark, if you have a look the petition doesn’t close for 6 months, plenty of time for contemplation. And Val, no you hadn’t had the courtesy of replying to my email so I didn’t know until now that you didn’t want to be involved in a routine feature about your breed aimed at pet people!
And anyone here want to say what’s so much worse about a system that has had mandatory health testing for 20 plus years, where everyone who owns a dog is a member, where there’s no thousands of unwanted dogs destroyed each year or pups sold in pet shops…. have to say Sweden looks rather good from where I’m standing!
If you view the KC webchat in response to the TV prog (accessible from their website) you’ll see that the reason they give for not doing more is the lack of legislation. In Sweden their KC is backed up with legislation – and while I know they are very different you don’t have huge numbers of dogs in rescue, don’t have puppy farms, don’t have dogs for sale in pet shops – plus you also have dogs being bred in a much more logical way with restrictions on inbreeding and health testing (and taking notice of the results) the norm.
A tougher KC introducing mandatory minimum standards backed up with legislation would really help – and it’s something they themselves have flagged up.
Not so much a case of the police at our door, just making it possible for our KC to be as good and strong as the Swedish one. There’s changes that would need to be made to ours first – democracy being one of them – in Sweden all the owners of dogs are equal members, wouldn’t that be great – pet owners having the same standing as show.
The petition will also remind the KC that it can’t just put its head in the sand and hope this all goes away – it mustn’t if we want these breeds to be around for the next human generation to enjoy. If this doesn’t work we are indeed likely to get Defra legislating without the KC being involved at all and that will be knee jerk and clumsy.
Hope you’ll sign!
I’m delighted you are taking inbreeding so seriously, and as I have said earlier – I can only remember the first 2-3 generations of my dogs pedigrees from the 1970s/80s and I have therefore used ‘unscientific’ language that I have qualified laboriously and not exact coeffiecients of inbreeding which without the paperwork in front of me would be totally impossible to calculate.
Come on give it a rest!
I have openly admitted I line-bred in some litters and now regret it.
This is just you trying to make this personal again – this is a much bigger topic and must be boring the pants off most people! This should be all about using the current scientific knowledge on effective population sizes and moving forwards, in all breeds – people bred very much closer than me in the 70s and 80s and some people are still breeding much closer now. My personal story is unexceptional either way. I am neither a particular saint nor sinner.
Please try to concentrate on the wider picture instead of just trying to attack me at every step, it’s getting a bit like a surreal Pink Panther movie with me as Peter Sellers. At any moment Dyane will launch herself at me and wrestle me to the floor – and I won’t see where she’s coming from! I certainly hadn’t expected a full scale attack due to not being able to recall Standard Inbreeding Coeffiecient in Bearded Collie pedigrees from the 1970s and 1980s!
PS I’ve linked a load of stuff on the blog for anyone who is still awake and sticking with this thread… petitions, useful addresses etc should you have seen the BBC1 documentary and want to help change things in the future http://coldwetnose.blogspot.com/ I’m afarid I have no links for people who want to change the past although the KC website may have the details fo the PR company they are using!
Just spotted the post about my breeding from the 70s and 80s! I think if you review my post you’ll see that I said that the early litters were using outcrossing – then later we line bred – but of course when I say outcross, as outcrossed as you can get in a breed that started off with only a handful of dogs!
By outcross I mean there were no dogs repeated in the sire and dam’s side for the first 2 or 3 generations at least (but I am only going by memory here and this was a few decades ago now).
I don’t have the books to look it all up to hand – but those sires again if you want to double check (!) –
Ch Charncroft Corinth ex Ch Edenborough Sweet Lady,
Ch Pepperland Lyric John of Potterdale ex Ch Edenborough Sweet Lady.
Then fairly distant line breeding to Blue Bracken: Ch Edenborough Star Turn at Beagold ex Ch Dearbolt Lady Ancorrie,
then an outcross Ch Oroa’s Frank ex Ch Dearbolt Lady Ancorrie.
Then another outcross Ch Orora’s Impetuosity ex Dearbolt Lady Cordelia (Star Turn ex Ancorrie) – Four really cute pups
then i think we tried Ch Potterdale Ptolemy on Cordelia – Philosopher wasn’t having anyof it -6 pups this time
and then we unusually had a third litter for one of our dogs – but we only had the one puppy by Caesar and that was to Ch Potterdale Philosopher at last – producing Cleopatra who we kept and never bred from.
Then we tried to line breed – which I do now regret.
We mated Dearbolt Lady Charalee Fawn (impetuosity ex Cordelia) to Ch Dearbolt Lord Snooty (Ch Lyric John ex Ch E S Lady) – which I think, with hindsight, was a bit close.
(Snooty was a Sweet Lady son and Charalee was her great grandaughter. I know people have gone much, much closer than that, but we were being told that line breeding fixes your type and we didn’t know any better back then! )
I had long left home by the time Lady Alicia was mated, and to tell you the truth I am not sure I can remember definitely who we mated Alice to, but I think it might have been Snooty. Think that was all the breeding we did, but you’ll probably correct me if not!
So – I make that one or two litters that were consciously line bred. As I said earlier.
We resisted mating Ch Dearbolt Lord Snooty to Ch Dearbolt Lady Ancorrie even though we were advised to by a very senior KC committee member and Ch show BIS judge who said that 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister matings were the foundation of her line.
And I totally put my hands up! We now have the info re the dangers of line breeding or using popular sires.
I think it’s dangerous to obsess about individual breed points though. Conformation and therefore ability to do the job was and is always far and above the most important to me in those days when i used to judge – haven’t done it for a few years now, last time was a Beardie show in Germany or Belgium I think. For me breed type issues only came into the equation to split hairs between equally matched dogs that could move like a dream. Eyes are for me the icing on the cake. The Charncroft element we found gave a lovely dark eye, Ancorrie particularly had a gorgeous expression and her daughter Cordelia, too. But for me Lord Snooty was the best dog we ever bred – he moved like a dream and his neck and shoulders, length of back were just to die for. His daughter (who I am embarrassed to say I can’t remember the show name of for the life of me!) was made just as well – but by then we’d tired of showing so no one ever got to see much of her.
Our dogs life expectancy was pretty good, my old Sal – Lady Charalee Fawn – lived to 16, as did Lady Alicia. Cleo sadly had a doggie equivalent of a stroke and didn’t deal with the disability well and had to be pts at 11 as she was very distressed at being imobilie. Every on else made their teens and had pretty healthy lives.Sal fanously survived Parvo and then liver cancer and pyometra to keep going to 16 – she was as tough as old boots and such a character, she was a fawn and as you’re interested in eyes – hers were darker than any brown I’ve ever seen!